3rd Most Downloaded Episode of Season 2: Happiness and Flow

Have you ever experienced been completely absorbed in a task or activity? You might be in flow! Research in positive psychology, the scientific study of what makes life most worth living, shows being in a state of flow can lead to increased life satisfaction. And we can find flow at work, at home, and really, anywhere! Knitting, puzzles, running, yoga...the list is endless. Find out more about flow and other positive psychology tools in this week’s IMBT episode: “Happiness and Flow”.

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• Martin Seligman
• Mihaly Csikszentmihalyi 
  • Flow: The psychology of optimal experience
• Dan Harris
  • 10% Happier
• Gretchen Ruben 
  • The Happiness Project
• Shawn Achor
  • Before Happiness

Produced by Jessica Warpula Schultz and Jeanne Kolker
Music by Jason A. Schultz

Insight Mind Body Talk. Also, check out our e-courses!

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Welcome to Insight Mind Body Talk, a body-based mental health podcast. We're your hosts, Jessica Warpula Schultz and Jeanne Kolker. Whether you've tried everything to feel better and something is still missing or you've already discovered the wisdom of the body. This podcast will encourage and support you in healing old wounds, strengthening relationships, and developing your inner potential- all by accessing the mind body connection. 
Please know, while we're excited to share and grow together. This podcast is not intended to be a substitute for mental health treatment. It doesn't replace the one-on-one relationship you have with a qualified healthcare professional and is not considered psychotherapy. 
Thanks Jess. And thank you for listening. Now, let's begin a conversation about what happens when we take an integrative approach to improving our wellbeing. Welcome to Insight Mind Body Talk. My name is Jess. I'm a licensed marriage and family therapist, trauma informed fitness expert.
And your host. Today's episode is called Happiness and Flow, and I am here with Ms. Jeanne Kolker, owner of Insight Counseling and Wellness, registered yoga teacher, licensed professional counselor, and today we are going to get into the nitty gritty of positive psychology. Hi Jeanne. How are you? Hi Jess.
I'm doing great. How are you? I'm good. I'm good. Good, good. I think this is a super fun topic to talk about, especially like, you know, in the middle of winter when we're recording this, when days are really short. Yeah. Kind of have to work a little bit harder to feel any sort of positive emotions. Agree some people.
Some people like winter, I'm not one of them. I am solar powered. I like to see the sun and feel warmth on my skin, so I gotta work a little harder in winter. Yeah. Mm-hmm. , me too. I, um, I do like the quiet morning. I like to sit and watch this. I'll get up, you know, it's still dark. And, um, I'll sit with my cats and I'll read while they watch the birds as the sun rises.
And that 15 minutes is the best part of winter for me. . Yeah. It's over, right? And then I'm sad and I have to remind myself as I'm driving home, it's only five 30. It's dark. Don't let this trick you. It's only five 30 . What would you feel like? Summer in five 30, and I try to call upon that energy because nothing's changed except for, you know, yeah, there's no sun.
Right, but you're using some cognitive tools Yes. To feel some happiness. That's basically the theme of our program today. . Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, you teach, you talk a lot, um, as a teacher, as a yoga teacher about positive psychology. So why don't you kind of get us started, you know, what is it? Where'd it come from?
What's the gist? Sure. What's the juice? Absolutely. Well, when you think about positive psychology, I think it kind of has some unfortunately cliche connotations. I think people think, oh, it's just the power of positive thinking. That's not gonna work for me. , right? It's kinda like a hippy-dippy woowoo. Well, you know, good for you, but I'm depressed.
That's not gonna help me . Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I think that's a, I think that's a misperception. I mean, positive psychology has really made a lot of strides in the last few decades and, you know, it's not a new concept. It. Something that we've been talking about, you know, since the middle of the last century.
Like, think about Maslow. We talk about Maslow, right? And his hierarchy of needs. You know, like how we have to have our basic needs met until we can, you know, Experience our potential and and truly grow. Sure. And you know, and that's kind of what this is based in. And, you know, positive psychology is really more about less of a focus on our, our symptoms.
And you know, like as therapists, you and I, because of the medical model and the way that we have to justify our existence to insurance companies, we have to set goals for people. That's like you. lessening my depression. So if I'm at a negative 10 today, can I get up to zero ? Mm-hmm. ? Mm-hmm. . Can I have a baseline of just like normal human being?
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And we focus a lot on, you know, the problems and the symptoms and, and treating those symptoms and, and sometimes a little, you know, at least through the medical model, I feel like it's a little less focused on the human and human potential and more about how to resolve. issues that someone has, right?
We talk about what's wrong. Mm-hmm. , but rarely do we talk about what's right and you know, I think. It's getting better. I think we're doing a better job with strengths and really helping people play to their strengths. And that's really kind of the, the crux of what we're gonna talk about today is, is using our strengths to, instead of maybe get our baseline to zero.
uh, you know, to get that baseline up a little bit higher so that we can actually experience positive emotions like joy, gratitude, life satisfaction, you know, Maslow would call it self-actualization, right? Whatever you call it. It's good stuff. Mm-hmm. . Yeah. Great. Awesome. So, Some of the folks that are accredited with really making this more of a movement.
Martin Seligman and Miha Chick sent Miha. These are two . I see that. Sorry, viewers. Our listeners can't see my face. Go, woo. Who are those people? Because I actually have not heard of either of them. Really? Okay. Well, so these are two really important names in the field of positive psychology because they're basically the, the founding father.
and Martin Seligman was the president of the A A P A in the nineties, you know, the American Psychological Association, which is who, uh, puts together our diagnostic manual for all the things that are wrong with us or mental disorders. Right. Um, and it's interesting to think that, you know, he, you know, he was in charge of this group and he was really, he was the person who doesn't wanna focus on symptoms, is actually one of the people in charge of categorizing and organizing all the symptom.
Yeah. Think about how Pi think about how pioneering that is. He didn't just go down that road, you know, he really talked about how can we, as you know, psychologists, psychiatrists, therapists, work not only toward, you know, relieving our suffering, but explore like what makes life more enjoyable? How do we focus from, uh, a focus on pathology to more flourish?
As individuals. And then of course we know the ripple effect. If we, if we're flourishing as an individual, that spreads and then we flourish more as a society. So, you know, he really was the, the founder of this and um, pretty. , it's kinda outta the box thinking, really? Yeah. Yeah. And, and now it's, that's why I'm saying it's not just like, you know, pop, pop psychology, just, you know, think your way to a better life.
It's based in science and it is, you know, truly, uh, an emerging field that I think has pretty huge implications. Cuz we all wanna be happy. I, you know, I don't, I don't wanna just be free from suffering. I'd love to be free from suffering, but I'd also like to have moments. true joy too. Sure. No, totally. It makes a lot of sense cuz it's not just, um, positive vibes only, which a lot of people think is, you know, positive psychology, they, you know, no feelings, no emotions allowed, right?
No, you're not allowed to be human. You just have to always be, have that toxic positivity. But what you're saying is that it's much more about how do we go from baseline neutral. to actually feeling as though we're in tune with ourselves, in tune with life, having those glimmers as well as those low points.
So it's, it's just kind of helping us flourish versus just kinda be there. Absolutely. I love. That's, yeah, that's what it's all about. It's, it, it is something to remember on these dark days. Yeah. When it's dark at 5:00 PM and mm-hmm. , you know, it is a challenge to, to really get ourselves going. But that's where we can really start to appreciate, here's where gratitude comes in.
When we, um, in order for the good in our lives to appreciate, we have to appreciate the good in our. So here's where gratitude can come in. What do you, what do you think about when you're thinking, oh, it's five 30. It's five 30. Okay. Is there anything that you're grateful for? in that darkness. . Mm-hmm. . Well, for me, like the, like I mentioned at the start, I try to even think about, you know, the potential still at five 30, you know, cuz my brain can be like, oh, it's five 30, it's so dark.
Like, this is the end of my day. What did I do for me? I didn't have any me time or any balance. And, and you know, trying to shift that thought and look for, yes, what am I grateful for that happened today, but what am I grateful? Still to come like that I could cultivate this evening. You know, there's, there's a lot of potential still.
Absolutely. And, and we know that our energy flows where our attention goes. So if we're spending more time thinking about all the good stuff and all the possibilities for that, that evening, um, then we're gonna have more of those positive emotions around it. You know? It is, it still is a lot of. A cognitive restructuring, you know, it, it, it is positive thinking, of course, but we also can recognize that, you know, negative emotions are a part of life.
Mm-hmm. , but oftentimes, We can make a decision to focus more on positive. And of course that's oversimplified. You know, all our listeners know that we talk about trauma a lot and how that changes our brain structures, the, you know, the systems in our bodies and we can't really outthink our trauma. We can wire, you know, we can wire ourselves a little bit more toward the positive with, with work, unfortunately, it, it does take work
No, it does. And I mean, it's, it's part of neuroscience, right. You know, so if, if. If we're, if we slow down and we're mindful in like that gratitude, right? And we really feel that gratitude and we truly experience it and then we work to continue to look for it, we're building those neuro pathways that are.
Looking and being in the gratitude. It's, it's, you know, it's the same way they, you know, for negative thinking at times. Like if we, if we stay in that and we don't disrupt it, those pathways do get really strong. And of course we all have negative thinking. Not to say that you're wrong to have it, but part of it is disrupting those thought patterns and trying to retrain the brain to be looking for that gratitude.
Mm-hmm. . Well, and you and I both know that mindfulness is a huge part of this. Yes. Right? So like a meditative practice can be really beneficial. Science, there's so much science out there to support that. Meditation can rewire our brains. We can wire them to be more positive. But you and I are both really invested in healing through the body.
Mm-hmm. . So, I mean, I can. at length about how yoga can increase our sense of joy and life satisfaction, and that we can really work toward more of a, a, just a positive outlook on our yoga mats. You could probably say the same thing for weightlifting. Oh, sure, sure. I mean, there's, there's so many parts to break down in movement when you're lifting weights, but you know, for me it's.
The mindfulness that you have to be so present in your body to be safe, right? Because you're, you're possibly lifting some pretty heavy stuff, and yet there's also, you enter a type of flow where you're so challenged and you are so enjoying it, hopefully, so much that you know, you, you tap into different parts of yourself that maybe aren't present when you're just in your prefrontal cortex or in your brain all day, right?
Mm-hmm. there, there's just a different element. I mean, there are so many times. When I am moving my body that I feel like my true self tells me what is happening next in my life and in my world. And then I make choices based out of those feelings, not based outta the parts that heier and maybe . You're kinda laughing like, oh, maybe I shouldn't be doing that, but it's so, no, not at all.
It's so true like that. I feel like I'm so tapped. And like my most purest self comes out. And there's been times when I'm lifting, which is how I started my entire career, right? Which I've told on previous podcast episodes that there's a part of me I only access after I have deadlifted 85 pounds, five times, you know, three sets, and I'm wiped.
And yet there's a part of my heart and in my soul that comes so alive where I think of new ideas or I think of things and I'm like, yes, I will follow. Or, or in your yoga class a couple weeks ago. Well, more than a couple weeks ago now when I said, like, I felt tapped in and then my, everything told me like where my path was supposed to move next, and I was like, yep.
Like totally trust that and, um, move. To, to be a person who movement wasn't safe, you know, 10 or 15 years ago and had a lot of, you know, we talk about trauma, like shallow breathing, tension in my body and inability to really be playful. Um, ver you know, hardly ever. And, and, and the ways that trauma changed my nervous system and enclose my window of tolerance.
You know, movement is in so many. The path that has expanded my window of tolerance and helped me feel safer and, and kind of cultivated, you know, my best self. Mm-hmm. . So not only are you healing. Things from the past. Mm-hmm. . And that you're also able to, um, like I said, move beyond that. Like just baseline of zero and like find joy.
Yeah. And be happy. Like there's, yes, there's, you know, physiological processes. There's some endorphins that are playing a role here, . Sure. When, when you're feeling that, I'll take it sense of, yeah, exactly. But it's, it's also getting that mind out of the way, and that's really what flow is. and Flo is a concept of positive psychology.
And here's that second name that I mentioned. Miha Chick sent Mihai. Mm-hmm. , he wrote the book on Flo. He started studying this in, oh, I know this person, I just course know their name. . Yes, yes, yes. And it's very fun to spell and pronounce. Uh, but, but he wrote the book on flow and it's, it was, came out in the nineties and, um, it's really all about, We might call it being in the zone.
Mm-hmm. , um, kind of finding that that activity where we lose track of time, we're totally absorbed in the moment and we're engaged and we're really living kind of in an optimal state. And that's, that's really what flow is. And that's kind of like what you're describing when you're, when you're lifting, you're totally in your body.
Mm-hmm. , your mind is not engaged, but then you find. Insight, like things come to you. Yeah. Cuz you're in the state of flow. Yeah, definitely. You know, I saw, I saw him do a TikTok or TikTok. Mm mm-hmm. , no, it's not called TikTok. It's called a TED Talk. Yes. Um, back in the day, a TED Talk, which are now on TikTok, I'm sure.
But I saw him do a TED Talk where he, you know, kind of did the, the graph of, you know, we can be highly challenged, but bored. We can be bored and unchallenged. We can be highly challenged and really not enjoying it per se, or mm-hmm. , you know, and then we can be. Highly, I'm not explaining this correctly.
What's the other one? Let me, let me take a stab at it. Thank you. Yeah, it was Lord Almighty. I'm gonna listen to this podcast later. And go, lady. What? The . You were not in a flow state when you're trying to describe that. I was in a thank you state, which wasn't come together. Okay. Take it away, Jeanne. Okay, so you're imagining a graph, right?
So we have the X axis, which is the one that is horizontal. So it's left and right. Right. So the X axis, that's our skill level. That's our skills. . Okay. Okay. And if we think about the Y axis, that's, that's the one that's vertical. That's up and down. That's the level of challenge. Oh, thank you. Yeah. So if you imagine that graph at the very, you know, at the bottom, if we have a low skillset and low challenge, that's just me, right?
That's like, yeah. I like to think about like washing the. You know? Yeah. I think we're all pretty skilled at washing the dishes cuz it doesn't take a lot of skills and it also doesn't take a lot of, um, challenge. It's just, it is what it is, right? Mm-hmm. , we, we get the dishes clean and it's kind of an apathetic moment.
It can also be very meditative, very mindful, you know, I'm not saying it couldn't be. Um, but then as you move along that, that skill levels, as we get more and more challenging and he, he studied musicians. Um, athletes, people who really, uh, are doing an activity not for, uh, a. Okay, so it's, it's more just like a mu you know, a musician who's practicing and, and just feels that real sense of joy when they are highly skilled at that.
And if it's a really easy piece of music, well that maybe is like relaxing, you know, it could be relaxing, it could also be kind of boring. But as that challenge is that y axis it, you know, as we go up that y axis and the challenge increases if. Not very skilled as a musician, and we're trying to play a really hard piece on our cello, you're gonna get anxious, angry, frustrated.
You're gonna have some negative emotions, right? But if you are a very skilled musician and you're, uh, Playing a piece that is challenging, but within your skillset, that's when you find flow. Hmm. That's where you reach that state of flow. So something with, uh, you know, high level of challenge, but also when, when you're skilled at that, you can enter that state of flow.
And maybe that's, you know, weightlifting can be that for you. Sure. That's something that know mm-hmm. , you've practiced. . For me it's yoga. I really feel a sense of flow and I'm teaching yoga cuz that feels, uh, like a, a challenge. It's not easy, but it's something that's within my skillset. Writing for me, I get in a real state of flow.
Mm-hmm. , because I was blessed and privileged to have, you know, lots of support and education, uh, as a child and in college to be able to, to write well. I always knew that was something. That I was, um, good at mm-hmm. , and, you know, writing an email to you isn't all that challenging, so I'm not necessarily in a state of flow.
Jess, it's fun and I like to make you laugh, , uh, . But if I were to say, sit down and, you know, write, uh, a class that's really meaningful to me, or to write a personal essay or to write in my journal. That's where I start to lose track of time. . Mm-hmm. . And you know, you even start to kinda like ignore your body cues.
I mean, have you ever been in a state of flow where all of a sudden you're like, Ooh, my bladder has been. Talking to me for a while. Oh, for sure. . Oh, for sure. Yeah, definitely. Or even lately it's been jigsaw puzzles for me. Like that's how I deal with the darkness of winter is I work jigsaw puzzles and if I've got like one that's super fun but really challenging, like a thousand piece, um, that's doable.
Yep. Then. in that state of flow. But if I, my, my sister and brother-in-law had one over Christmas that was impossible. It was, uh, it was basically just a, a hunter dressed in white, in a white field, and all the, all the pieces were the same, exact same shape and size. Mm-hmm. and I, I sat down and I thought, I can do this.
I can totally do this. I got mad. I got mad and I put it away. Yeah. So, you know, even a jigsaw puzzle, you can find a sense of flow. What, where do you feel flow? Uh, let's see. I think journaling is a big one where I'm like, you know what? I'm, I'm, I'm sitting down to force myself to write these two pages and suddenly it's like my hand's cramping.
It's 10, 12 pages later for. I can find flow. Sometimes I'll find it coloring. I can't stop. Or, um, I would say like organizing. I love to organize and, but really for me, I think, um, like movement. But this podcast, you know, I could spend hours editing and. The podcast led me to this thing called Canva. If y'all don't know it, and I enter flow in Canva, I could make like add after add with copy, after copy, after copy, and I would just, it's really creating, it's creating things lead into flow for me where it's like, What new thing can I think of?
How can I make it look? What kind of copy can I write? You know, all, all those kinds of parts kind of come online and, and theater was always a huge flow for me. Mm-hmm. , like community theater, or I studied theater in college. Mm-hmm. , public speaking. Oh my gosh. Like right. Writing, writing that, you know, presentation and then giving.
Total flow, you know, think about and therapy, right? And being a therapist, like good, right? I mean that's, so what I took away from uh, the TED Talk I watched was that, you know, I, I'll never forget it cuz I saw it, I think even maybe before I was a therapist or, or just starting out. The more time someone spends in flow, the higher their life satisfaction is, and that is how like personal flow is.
So finding your flow leads to a higher life satisfaction. And I will go to the gym and I train my clients hour is gone in three seconds. You know when therapy, when the work is happening. Done in three seconds. And when a client says, oh my gosh, we just started, oh, we're both in flow, right? It's not every session, it's not every workout, but I try to put a lot of flow in my life.
because I, I think it brings a lot of meaning. Ugh. That's exactly it. That's the point of this, you know, positive psychology is about being in that place where you are experiencing flow, joy, meaning, and having glimpses of that. Yeah, hopefully on the daily, that's what helps us to really live that optimal life.
And of course, you know, we don't all get that privilege, you know, unfortunately we don't all get to, you know, go and access higher education and the things that you and I have done. Yeah. But there, but there are, you know, there everybody can find a state of flow in something. Mm-hmm. and Oh yeah. When we are able to, Engage in that more and more often.
Like I was even reading some study about video games and flow and how that's Oh, for sure. Yeah. , that's not my thing. Um, but I know a lot of people, not my thing either, but I'm like laughing cuz my husband and I pulled out my 1985. No joke, y'all, Nintendo. Over the holiday break for something like fun to do.
And you know, I'm not in flow doing it, but his inner child is like his 12 year old self. His 10 year old self is so excited and in flow. And then I come home the other day and I'm pulling in her driveway and I can see the. TV through the windows and there is like 16 bit N B A jam across our living room television, which is a super Nintendo if y'all didn't know.
So my husband sought out this Super Nintendo, brought it home, and he is playing his all-time favorite game he's ever played. And so like, I'm getting a lot of work done at home right now cuz he's like invested in n b jam. He's like, time is passing. And I, oh my gosh. Yeah. Cause he's not a gamer, but he's so in flow and he is also totally tapping in just to his 12 year old self who's like psyched.
Mm-hmm. Who played it on like a 19 inch television screen when he was a kid. Right. And so now it's just like, whoa, this is the, the big leagues. I made it in life. Right. . But he's so. . And that's, that's such a great thing. Like he can find that every day. It's obviously not his job. No. And maybe it would lose some of its appeal if it were his job.
You know, that's the, that's part of flow is that in, when you're in that activity, you're doing it not for not to reach, uh, a goal, you know, or for that external thing. It's more of an internal, um, validating experience. And the more we can experience. Then obviously, you know, we are able to be more absorbed in our lives to experience more like inner harmony, to experience more meaning in our life.
And that's, you know, as a therapist, I know you talk to people about that all the time, you know, what is, where do you find meaning? Definitely, you know, I think it can always kind of come back to meaning and sometimes if I see people with maybe a, a rise in depression or a life stage that kind of brought on some depression or some anxiety, a lot of times, you know, when we get down to those core values and who people imagine themselves to be and what they imagine their life to be, those symptoms perhaps are.
Connected or triggered to feeling like there's a lack of meaning in their life. And again, you know, you're right, coming from a place of privilege that I was able to cultivate through resources and support, um, a career path that has a lot of meaning. But that doesn't mean we can't find meaning in all these other places.
And if I only found my meaning through my career, , that would not be good either, right? Mm-hmm. . So it's important for every human to have all these areas that bring meaning, whether it's knitting, right? Flow. Mm. And then giving, I love knitting. Mm-hmm. . Yeah. And then sharing that with someone you love, like giving them like something, right?
Mm-hmm. Or mm-hmm. , you know, a lot of people find meaning in how they take care of their homes or their apartment or their, their own space and other people through like self-development or journaling, and you. also flow for me is really in relationship, right? Like if I am with a person and the time passes and I'm like, whoa.
I could be with them for five more hours and it's already been a huge chunk of time. Like that's a big signal to me too about like who we should keep close to us as well. Mm-hmm. , I know when you sit down with your girlfriends and you haven't seen them in like three months and suddenly y'all paid the check like five hours ago, but nobody is moved and everybody has to pee.
You're all in flow together, which I think is pretty significant. Yeah, absolutely. And we, we can find meaning like no matter what, you know, it, it, Victor Frankel is part of this discussion too, and the, you know, he wrote Man's Search for Meaning after Experiencing Life in a concentration camp in World War ii.
And, you know, he, he wrote that book to point out that folks who understood they can control their thoughts regardless of their circumstances, uh, were the ones who survived. . Yeah. And so, I mean, this is, this is more than just, you know, having fun at a video game. It's if it's, if we can wire ourselves to really see the positives, to experience those states of positive, uh, emotion, that really does help us in all domains of our life.
Mm-hmm. Hmm. , it can help us not just survive, but then even thrive. So this is a definitely not a new concept. No, no. And, you know, let's. Transition and talk for a second about the, so Jeanne and I, y'all have recently watched the Netflix documentary Stutz about the psychotherapist, Phil Stutz. And he, you know, it was created by Jonah Hill, Jonah Hill, his client.
And besides, at least for me, I feel like it was a very beautiful documentary and very meaningful. Uh, but, uh, Stutz uses a lot of PO positive psychology type tools in how he supports his clients. A lot of focusing on love and gratitude and really looking at, you know, flow. He calls it life force and, and it's not exactly the same, but even the concept of life force where if someone is.
Saying, you know, I know what I'm supposed to be doing. I know I'm depressed. I know what's gonna get me out of it, but I can't even get there. Like, what can I do? And, and he encourages people to activate their life force and that it can guide you when you're lost and help you find your passion, maybe find more flow.
And if, if you wanna imagine it, the life forces is kind of like a pyramid, like at the bottom, focusing on your relationship with your body. So looking at how you can move more, maybe eat in a way that supports your system. Work on your sleep and then working up towards your relationship with people, if you're connected, if you're co-regulating, you know, what are those relationships like?
And then lastly, working on your relationship with yourself. And you know, Seth really believes in journaling to do that, that we tap into an unconscious part of ourself and, and we get to know ourselves in a different way when we're writing or journaling. But that can, you know, someone's journaling may be, you know, running someone's journaling maybe.
And, you know, really kind of utilizing like when you can tap into these three channels of your body, your relationships, and yourself, that that can really alleviate a lot of those symptoms and get you back into a state of being able to feel confident in pursuing your passion. Mm-hmm. , what, what all did you think about that, that documentary?
I thought it was an, I thought it was really interesting. I mean, I, of course am drawn to exploring, therapeutic relationship. Mm-hmm. , and you know, as somebody who's been on a couch for years and on the other side as well, and I, you know, at first, um, I was like, okay, so this guy just tells people what to do,
I was wondering what you thought about that. I mean, I have opinions about that as well, but I do too. I mean, it's very solution focused, right? It's not necessarily my way. I mean, personally when, and my loved ones can absolutely attest to this. If you tell me what to do, I'm gonna do the opposite. I have the counter will and I have it very strong.
So that doesn't really work for me. I don't want someone to just tell me what to do. Find, and I find this in therapy as well, that, you know, sometimes we have to get there ourselves in order for the change to be meaningful and lasting. So rather than if someone tells me, here's what's wrong with you, here's how you fix it, I'm less inclined to believe them.
Mm-hmm. I am one of those people who I like to get there myself. Yeah. And then I. Make the changes. So that's not exactly my style, but I like the tools. I mean, I definitely see how his approach appeals to people. I think the tools are very similar to what you and I both use. It's very cognitive, behavioral.
It's a lot of imagery. It's uh, meditation, everything. Every tool he introduced started with Close your eyes. . Okay. So basically we're doing a guided meditation. . Yeah. You know, so I did really like that. I liked his, I liked his grateful flow. Mm-hmm. , speaking of flow, that just, you know, where you basically find, you know, start naming the things that you're grateful for and then, and then stop and just feel the sensation of, of what it feels like to experience gratitude, to be in that essential flow state, A positive flow state.
Mm-hmm. , I like that. I liked the, the love. One, I don't remember what he called it, but you know, basically energetically, um, envisioning like your love as a force mm-hmm. and giving it to the person across from you and Yeah. You know, it's very much, it's very Yung and it's very collective consciousness.
Mm-hmm. and, you know, that appeals to me as somebody. Really leans on the philosophy of yoga for, for my therapeutic lens. Yeah. Yeah. I, uh, Jason put it on while I was cooking and I kept like, stop cooking every five minutes running across like, we have an open concept space, but I'd run and I'd also tell him something like to, like, I was a third participant in the documentary, like, but I do this and I da, da, da, da da da.
And so it's like pause, watch for five minutes, just has something to say. Pause, watch. But, um, so we, he hasn't even finished it yet because I interrupted him so many times. Uh, but, so I was interested what you thought about his neutrality, like his lack of neutrality mm-hmm. , because I al always, I, I have an opinion with the people I work with.
Not always, but sometimes I get to the point where some of my clients where they're like, well, I wanna know what you think about this. And I'm, I don't wanna be that neutral force, you know, Um, you know, kind of, he, he expresses that he is, that he does have a dog in the fight, right? Like he cares. And, and I look at the relationship between the two and at times I'm like, uh, mm-hmm.
I don't know, there's a little boundary boundary crossing and ament happening here a little bit. And yet, um, Some of the best information I feel like I got when I was on the couch was on when I would say to my therapist, like, okay, I, I care what you, what you think about this. Can you, you know, and there's some permission giving, right?
Like my clients know that if they really want my advice, like ask for my advice and let's set that clear boundary that I'm not telling you what to do, but based on my clinical judgment and my life, experie. have I, and what I've learned from other clients in the world and what I like. Let's all mush it up and I'll tell you what I think maybe.
And does that resonate for you or is there anything about that? And uh, I was just recently listening to a podcast episode with Dr. Yala and he also talked about how the. The self-disclosure in the relationship can just, you know, can be really healing. And so for some, some parts in a way I did think that, oh wow, look at the relationship these two have.
And that was fascinating to me. Like that's how we heal is through relationship. Mm-hmm. But I'm glad he had the tools and you're right, he did advise everyone to kind of close their eyes all the time and, and, and I thought his language was really access. You know, he wasn't sitting on some expert, you know, tall mountain, you know, you know, he was right there with you kind of using everyday language to kind of explain, you know, maybe what he thinks can help.
Right. I thought it was powerful. I, I really, then I went in, you know, he does have some books and I thought, oh, I could read those books. Um, but you, I, I mean, I think that's a whole other topic, a whole other podcast. I know. Is it appropriate for a therapist? It's a side, you know, a side path for a therapist to tell the patient.
He calls them patients. I love you. Yeah. And to hear that from his patient, right? Ooh, are we then in a therapeutic relationship? Yeah. So yeah, I, that was a cringe moment for me. For sure. So our, our disclaimer here folks, is that we took some interesting parts from it, and yet we would probably from a trauma informed lens, especially maybe be doing some of these other parts, you know, things he did differently.
I agree. Yeah, no, I thought it was a really interesting documentary and the more that we can talk about and normalize mental health struggles yes. And the pursuit of therapy, the better. I applaud Jonah Hill for his vulnerability. Me too. In making that movie. Yeah. I was really grateful that they did. And yeah, again, it's another, another thing to talk about that maybe people are watching it together and then are inspired to kind of.
Talk about it or seek out someone like Phil Stutz, like go for it. Find your fill. Like that would be great. Maybe you're Phil. We don't have any fills at Insight, but we have have lots of wonderful therapists. We have lots of, lots of metaphorical fills. Yes, exactly right. And I do like, I like that the tools are pretty simple and you can do it yourself, you know?
Yes. I. Again, like when we're talking about positive psychology, I feel like people lean in right away and think, oh, it's self-help. It's just you trying to make money off me cuz you're selling me a book. Um, but it, it speaks to that this is accessible stuff. , you know? Mm-hmm. . And if you do have significant trauma or mental health issues, this is best done with a therapist.
Yes. Uh, but there are lots of tools that you can use to kind of pulse that positive emotion every day. Yeah. Yeah. And get into that state of flow. There's so many opportunities that don't cost any money to get into a state of flow. I agree. Totally. Well, what a lovely conversation it's been. It has been.
Thanks, Jess. Yeah, thank you. So last thing, what are some of your, do you have any favorite positive psychology, like books or anything like that, that people can look up or what sticks out to you in your mind that maybe if someone's interested in positive psych, that they. You know, you know, one of my favorites and I will, uh, you know, Miha Chick sent Miha, wrote a wonderful book, and it's very academic, but honestly, it is a difficult read.
It's not super easy. Um, if it's, if that's your jam, I encourage you to go for it. But one of my books that we use in, in one of the trainings that I present for Yoga Fit is called Authentic Happiness by Sean Acor. And I can put that in the show notes. Um, and. , you know, it's really more, I think, geared toward folks like in the business world.
Um, but Sean Acor, he is written a couple books when is Before Happiness, um, and it's really all just all about, um, what tools can we use that we all have to just be a little bit happier every day. And I, he's got a really great Ted Talk as well. . Ooh, I love those. You know, and one more. It Yeah. Would be, yeah.
Dan Harris. 10% happier. I'm sure I've talked about it. . I was just trying to Google that one. I was like, I know that, um, there was one more you've referenced before. Mm-hmm. . Yeah. I mean, he is got a wonderful, like, sardonic approach to meditation and. It is hard to argue that, you know, if you take 10 minutes a day to meditate, you might be 10% happier in your life and that that ain't a bad thing.
Yeah, yeah, exactly. You know, and, um, from my end, I didn't read this, but my partner Jason did, he really liked the Happiness Project by Gretchen Rubin. Sure. He felt like, you know, nothing. He's like, I've, I've heard it before. You know, these are all things I've heard before, but he still. enjoyed having like another lens, another narrative, another person telling the story and, and being able to maybe think about it a little bit differently.
Mm-hmm. . Yeah, there's a lot of good stuff out there. Yeah.. All right, well thanks Jeanne. Yeah, thanks Jess. And you know, go out there and get in your flow state and getting more flow. It'll be, it'll be summer soon. It will be. It totally will. All right. Well you take care and thank you everyone for listening.
 See you next time, 
 Thank you again for joining us on Insight Mind Body Talk, a body-centered mental health podcast. We hope today's episode was empowering and supported you in strengthening your mind-body connection We're your hosts Jeanne and Jess. Please join us again as we continue to explore integrative approaches to wellbeing. Until then, take care.