Habits! Why is it so hard to break the bad ones while maintaining the good ones? Jeanne and Jess try to answer just that. They explain the process of habit formation and the neuroscience behind it; as well as, why certain habits are easier to keep than others. They discuss the path to breaking bad habits and share simple steps for building new ones. If you're looking for change, your habits the first place to start.
Produced by Jessica Warpula Schultz & Jeanne Kolker
Edited by Jessica Warpula Schultz
Music by Jason A. Schultz
Ep 21: Habit Hacks - The Psychology of Making & Breaking Habits
[00:00:00] Welcome to Insight Mind Body Talk, a body-based mental health podcast. We're your hosts, Jessica Warpula Schultz and Jeanne Kolker. Whether you've tried everything to feel better and something is still missing or you've already discovered the wisdom of the body. This podcast will encourage and support you in healing old wounds, strengthening relationships, and developing your inner potential- all by accessing the mind body connection.
Please know, while we're excited to share and grow together. This podcast is not intended to be a substitute for mental health treatment. It doesn't replace the one-on-one relationship you have with a qualified healthcare professional and is not considered psychotherapy.
Thanks Jess. And thank you for listening. Now, let's begin a conversation about what happens when we take an integrative approach to improving our wellbeing. Welcome everyone to insight, mind, body talk today, Jess and I are [00:01:00] going to tackle the topic of habits. It's a huge cottage industry. Essentially, if you look around, if you Google books on habit formation, you will find so many even in the last 10 years.
Some of the most popular ones, will that we'll talk about today at Charles Duhigg The Power of Habit, James Clear and his Atomic Habits. I liked Jen Sincero and Bad-ass Habits. Pardon our French. And what that, what does that say? Why do you think that people are so interested in reading about habits, Jess?
I've noticed that we all have the information at our fingertips. Can research, how to change your lives. We know what we need to do, and we try and often we have a hard time implementing things. Long-term and that then makes us want to figure out the actual formation of these habits, because why is it so hard for me or when I become.
[00:02:00] Why do the new habits I've started fall to the wayside. And I also think that as human beings, we can experience shame with that failure and other feelings that are uncomfortable and it increases suffering. And so we're trying to, I think, figure out a way to alleviate suffering, live our best life.
And the way we can do that honestly, is looking at her habits because, in researching for this episode, I found data that says 43% of what we do on a daily basis is habitual. I think that's pretty powerful if you want to change your life, what are your habits? I know it goes all the way back to Aristotle.
Right? Allegedly his quote was we are what we repeatedly do. So this is really about who we are as people it's really, it's striking into that character. Part of us. That's yeah. That's something that we think, oh it's, it's we can't change that. Absolutely. We can change it with actually pretty small little tweaks.
And we're not saying that we've got the [00:03:00] answers here, but we're just, we're going to talk about some things that, might be helpful for us in making some changes in our lives. So Jeanne, how would you define a habit? Well, I think it's something that I tend to think of it as like an unconscious thing, something that we just do without just being on autopilot.
So just without getting our decision-making brain involves something that we just do That's unconscious. So let's think about those habits that we have that might. Survival-based so thinking about, as body-centered therapists, right?
Our brains are always scanning for safety. So something that we do that might be survival-based, we walk into a dark room. What do you do? Turn on the light. You turn on a light switch. Do you even think about it anymore? No. No. And a couple of weeks ago, the power went out at home and I kept walking into rooms and turned on the light switch, expecting the lights to go [00:04:00] on.
It's my survival brain, but that's. Sometimes I walk up to a house and I use my car unlocker to unlock my door. I walked into my office a couple of days ago and I walked in and clicked it. I don't know if I thought the lights would turn on. I'm not sure, but.
I was like, get it, ready? Click. And that's your survival brain going? Okay. I need to, I need to be safe in my space, right? Exactly. Like the car. Yep. You were definitely on autopilot, prefrontal cortex, not involved. Your brain was not your thinking brain was not involved.
You were very much in your survival brain. So those are, there's a lot of those things. I'm sure we could think of many examples of that, but what we're talking about as well, how do we create things that then can just become automatic that we know can serve maybe our higher self, not just that survival part.
So think about some things now that you've intentionally changed [00:05:00] and I can think of something really easily. And it has to do with dental hygiene, which is not necessarily a habit for everybody. I was taught to brush my teeth growing up and I brushed my teeth, but I didn't floss.
Didn't like flossing. Wasn't fun for me. And then I had this dentist who just put the fear in me. He told me that if you don't start flossing, you're going to lose your teeth by the time you're 30. Oh, my God. Talk about motivation. So I, I had to really like intentionally put the floss right next to the toothpaste.
So every night I would floss, but it took me actually, it took me years to get into a flossing habit. And now it is just, it is like, it is religious. I floss daily. I cannot go to sleep unless I. Because there was that, that drive that motivation. I don't want to lose, I mean, here I am in my late forties, my teeth are rock solid, right?
Yeah. Big was [00:06:00] because of that flossing. Yes, because I was super motivated, but it's not something that just came naturally to me. I didn't really like doing it now. I love it. Can you think of anything like that in your life that you've intentionally. for me, I think of my skincare right away, my skincare routine, I remember washing my face as a teenager, and I've done that as an adult, but it wasn't until I had some really lovely girlfriends about 10 years ago, say, Jess.
I think you need a different skincare routine because it was still acting up. I didn't understand it. It felt dry. I was breaking out a lot and it just wasn't something I knew much about. And so, but then try and implement the skincare routine, Joe, we're not all David from Schitt's Creek who has nine step routine and loves it.
David. It has taken work a lot of work for me. And here I am, 41 years old and really proud to say that maybe the last two or three. [00:07:00] I no matter what I can be camping, there is no. And I'm the girl who's washing her face in ice, cold water, and then putting on my eye cream and then working in my serums and then misdom my face.
And it's really important to me. And I feel like it's a way I take care of myself. And yet knowing that consistency is key is something that I'm really proud that I've been able to integrate into my life, that it has become a habit of. Oh, and I heard pride in there as being one of the rewards. I'm guessing a lovely skin tone is another room.
Maybe it depends on how much caffeine I've drank that day. But I will say that my, breakouts have definitely subsided and my skin is much more nourished than it was ever before. And yeah, that feels right. Yeah. So it took actual mindful attention. [00:08:00] It did cause I'm tired at night and I still say out loud, almost clockwork.
Oh, I have to go wash my face now. Still do it.
So there's quite a bit of psychology when it comes to that. But now it's, but now it is more of a just like an automatic routine. Yeah, definitely. Yeah. So habit psychology. There's a lot written on this. Like I mentioned, when we started to talk, there's so many books talking about why do we do what we do?
What you've heard, creatures of habit, we are creatures. We are definitely wired for survival. Okay. We can change these things because you and I have talked about things that we've had to intentionally change. And especially as as we get to this time of year or two, it's, getting to be winter people are always looking for how am I gonna, break these bad habits that maybe I don't know about you, but I've accumulated a few things that maybe aren't serving you through this pandemic while we've [00:09:00] been separated and working from home.
And we tend to, use this change of seasons is the time to really start to think about what would be better for us? What could we change? What could we add? What could we subtract? We can really look at this in terms of that psychology. And the writing that I like to look through, Charles Duhigg, he wrote a really good book.
He said a journalist called The Power of Habit. We really can put a lot of these things on autopilot and he talks about three steps of the habit room. He discusses a cue or a true. Keyword trigger. And then we have the behavior that happens afterwards. And then we get that reward that dopamine hit
that's a really important thing to think about research shows that it's much easier to keep a habit that we enjoy versus something that's good for us.
, but yeah, cue behavior reward. And it becomes automatic after a while. [00:10:00] Cube your reward after awhile and after awhile. And I've read so many things, we hear these buzzwords it's so like it's so much more Instagram. It'd be like 21 days to a new you. There's not really anything that really supports that whole 21 days thing.
I've read, 21 days, 30 days, 60 days, Malcolm Gladwell talks about 10,000 hours. Okay of practice to really master a habit or master a skill. So there, isn't a magic number for this, you've talked about, how long it took you to get into that skincare routine. It took me years to get into the, the flossing.
Every time I brush my teeth routine, it's unique to every person. So there isn't any magic number, but again, like we do start to wear a groove in our brain. After a while. You talk about that. You talk about that dopamine hit. Yeah. Those neuro-transmitters those chemical messengers in our brains have a huge role in this.
And we're trying to take that [00:11:00] thinking brain out of it really get into our movement brain that. The, if you look into, the habits psychology and the neurology of this, it has to do with our basal ganglia, which is really deep in our brains. These structures that have to do with controlling our voluntary movement.
I think of, walking into a dark room and my hand goes for the lights. Yep. So that's just that part of that movement, part of the brain, it's not the prefrontal cortex. Yeah, so procedural learning in a way, right? That our brains recall what we've done in the past in order to keep us safe in the future and habits are totally procedural learning.
How there's a great video on YouTube , most of us know how to ride a bike and we practice less kids and then becomes second nature. You can go 10 years. Riding your bike and you hop on and your brain knows what to do. And in this video he flips the handlebars around and no one can ride a bike.
You flip those handlebars [00:12:00] around and suddenly you're it's like backing up a truck with a trailer. Your brain has to really think about what's happening because it's not the pattern that it's used to. And so when we think about the neurology, to me, Self compassion and grace. So many people come to me as a personal trainer or people trying to work through patterns that don't serve them any more, whether it's self-soothing patterns or movement patterns, or health patterns.
And if it doesn't stick immediately, there's a lot of self judgment and a lot of shame and a lot of stories around that, but it takes a long time to build those new neural pathways. It takes a long time to build that myelination. So how can we give ourselves grace as we practice these new habits, knowing that procedural learning kicks in a lot of it's ingrained at that point, it doesn't mean that we can't change it.
No, absolutely not. No. And I love that you mentioned [00:13:00] self-compassion. That's something that we've done a whole episode on here on the podcast, and that is, again, it's not something you do one morning and you're good for the rest of your life. You have to practice that, hourly really just to offer that sense of, what I'm trying to do something hard.
And I need to give myself a break. And that we don't judge ourselves. We don't place our value on whether or not we can make those habits stick. We have to constantly remind ourselves and that is the habit in itself to practicing self-compassion. Completely to challenge that negative self-talk and replace it with something else is something we have to be mindful of, which is one of the ways you change a habit is bringing that level of mindful awareness to it and doing that in a way that you can befriend.
What's happening versus judge or come down on yourself too hard. Yeah. And mindful awareness is how we even know, what needs changing. We have to know how [00:14:00] we're out of balance in order to bring ourselves into balance. So we actually have to do that self study. To learn what are some of the bad habits I need to change?
Some are really obvious, right? Like we know you shouldn't smoke what do I need to do to quit smoking? That's, that's a whole other thing. And as therapists we can tell people I think, you should meditate. You should exercise, all these sheds, all these things you should do well, but a person needs to understand.
To have that self-awareness to know what's going to be best for them. And to then make that change internally to have that internal drive to make the changes, because it's a different thing from changing a bad habit to introducing a new habit. Those are the, again, that's why there's so many books on this because there's a lot to that.
And mindfulness really is a big part of it. So let's talk about changing a bad.
Okay. Changing a bad habit. If you want to do it and I think a [00:15:00] holistic way, you need to do the internal work. Work with the different parts of yourself.
So if we have a bad habit, can we work with those parts in the way of bringing positive intention?
So maybe we say smoking is a bad habit, but obviously there are parts who really align with that smoking habit because those parts are trying to do something good for you. When we think about the different parts of who we are, we always need to take into consideration. Even if we feel they're bad They're always trying to help us find regulation and they're always trying to help us feel safe. So working with that part who is really on board with that backpack. You know, I have bad habits and I know that there are parts where like, I don't like that you're going to change this habit.
Well, It's great. They help us cope. Yes. Yeah, definitely. So it's you know what? I think I'm to pull back on coffee and I have some parts where we're like no. [00:16:00] How, How will this happen? How will that happen? How will this happen? So I think we're still going to sneak in, that extra few cups that maybe you don't want.
So working with those parts why are they doing that? What do they feel they're helping you with? And really, what are they scared of? If you do let go of that habit, what is their worst fear that would happen? And how can we have a dialogue with them so that they understand that it'll be okay and we're doing this for other reasons and maybe.
That part gets to have a new job or something new to do versus continue this bad habit. So I think it's really good to go internal with those parts who maybe are sabotaging or continuing a bad habit. Again, we've created these habits in response to something, maybe we do light a cigarette because it's the way that.
Learn to calm our bodies when we're [00:17:00] in an arousal state, like when we're hypervigilant and that's served us in that in a way that, we don't think about it as being necessarily bad or detrimental to us. So we have to really think about why do we have that habit? But also again, if we are what we repeatedly do, do we want to be the person who is short of breath?
Do we want to be the person who has little power over this? Or do we want to be the person or, you know, who do we want to be? Like, what is the identity that we want to have really think bigger picture like that. And then, yeah. Welcome that part and see what it has to say and see what it's.
To change. Dr. Wendy Wood the author of Good Habits, Bad Habits, she brought up a really great idea. I've never called it friction, but that's what it is. If you want to get out of your head about it, if you have a bad habit, can you make it harder to do that?
Um, If there is a [00:18:00] habit you want to replace with it, can you make it easier to do that habit? And that's called friction so you can play with. You know, this is a big one for people who are trying to change their diet. Can you not put those things in your house? If it's, I have to get in my car and I have to drive somewhere all that time to be mindful and check in with yourself and do the internal work. What is the friction that you can create for yourself? It's you know it's not having the cigarettes next to you when you wake up in the morning. If you're trying to quit smoking, it's, it's putting those things further away or it's, lessening the friction to like. Yeah. If you want to get up and get on your yoga mat in the morning, make it really attractive.
Have it be right there, rolled out for you. You have your meditation cushion there and put like happy little things that you enjoy around it. Like your essential oils and a candle and all that good stuff. That's soothing and exciting. That's a reward in itself. That's going to get you there a lot more consistent.
Yeah, there's a lot of [00:19:00] different things. When we think about a habit, for example, something I'm working on and I feel like, oh, I'm just about there is taking.
My vitamins. I really want to be someone who adds a little extra boost and gets my multivitamin and gets my fish oil and my vitamin D because I know that really helps with mental health and things of that nature, but the consistency can be really hard. So I bought really fun pillbox. Yes. I'm that old?
That a pillbox is fun and it has pictures of, oh, I have a really cute one too. I do. Mine's a rainbow and it's got three compartments. I'm really excited about that. So morning, mid day and night. And I know, and so I take it in the morning and I put it in my lunch pail , and then I always set it on the counter where I can see it.
Cause if I can't see it, it's not happening, sometimes I'll put it next to me on the couch, really easy friction. So it's there. And that has really helped me create this habit. And now I actually [00:20:00] noticed when I'm not doing it, it's pretty rare that I, I miss taking those vitamins just because I'm making it more enjoyable and easing the friction on it.
And you're not complicating it. You're not, over-complicating it like I, go to the gym and take my vitamins. So we're doing two things, right? So I have so I have this happy light. I call it, for Seasonal Effective Disorder. It's getting, it's dark, there's a lot more darkness here in the Midwest and, it's time for me to start using that in the morning so that I can really get ahead of any seasonal depression.
And last year I would have. That my happy light. I put it in my right next to my meditation cushion. So then I was like I will meditate. And then I will use my happy light. Guess what neither happened. I overcomplicated exactly. Automatic, it was, I would have to be like, oh, okay, now I have to go do this.
Oh. And turn on my happy light. So what I did this year is I set my happy light next to my recliner because you know what I'm going to do every morning. [00:21:00] I'm going to have a cup of coffee and I'm going to just catch up on my emails, my phone, watch the weather, see what's going on. And I have not missed a day.
In the past couple of weeks because I made it so easy and I didn't pair it with something that was also going to make me have to also something that you're trying to work on. That's such a good point. Cause I love to overcomplicate things too. I'm always, I'm a striver, like literally sat me down here today and it's you're changing too much.
You're habit stacking the wrong things. You got to pull back it's too much for your brain to change so much at once, which I think is a really good thing to think about. Great point when you are building a habit, habit stacking is a huge trendy thing to say right now. And it's a good strategy where so habit stacking is where you pair things to make sure they happen, exactly what you just described.
But if you're already working on one thing and you pair it with something else you're working on, I think sometimes that creates a little bit of a freeze response. Our brain just goes out of [00:22:00] this too much and we don't even notice it, but we start avoiding. A little bit too much, and then we don't work on anything. So that is a great idea to pair it with something that's already a habit. Absolutely. And to not overwhelm ourselves. Yeah. It is, it can be overwhelming. And I, when we work with people, Jess, we understand human behavior and, I don't know how many times you've had somebody come to you and say, I want to do all of these things.
I want to get up before Dawn and meditate and go do my yoga and have a healthy breakfast and do all these things. Yeah. That's setting that, setting ourselves up for failure, essentially, the body and the brain cannot integrate all of that at once. it's just like somebody who's like, I'm going to go work out and you go to the gym and you do an, and you hurt yourself right away because you're not conditioned.
Your body's not conditioned. Same thing with your brain. Your brain is not going to absorb all of those changes at. [00:23:00] that's a really good point. That's a really good point. Let's talk about then how we even create a new house. What are your thoughts? Oh, that's such a hard thing. It's simple and yet so challenging.
So again, let's go back to the cue response and reward. I like to set goals and I like to have a reward, so let's say, okay. If I use my, if I use my happy light everyday, For a week then I'm maybe treat myself to a massage or there's even that intrinsic reward daily when I use the happy light.
Cause I'm drinking my coffee when I do it. So that's my reward, so I think setting yourself up to for success, but with, being realistic about it what, what motivates you?
One thing I'm not sure if it's quite motivating me, but it helps me have a different perspective. Is this article called what is the pain that you're willing to sustain? You have to enjoy in a way the struggle. [00:24:00] So going back to enjoying things, it's a lot easier to make something automatic, if you find enjoyment or joy in it. And so the idea of what is the pain you're willing to sustain is, you know, we all have goals working with them can be hard. And you almost got to find a way to enjoy the whole. The difficult part of it I don't know if I've talked about it on the podcast yet.
Movement is always in my opinion, going to be something that I have to work on. I am not a personal trainer who grew up as an athlete. And a lot of ways movement has been this habit that I think I'll always work on because when I become stressed, my system freezes that's my go-to threat response is freeze, freeze and shut down. Hooray. And so when I get stressed, even though I know movement is really important and actually helps me manage my stress , I tend to.
So the habit of movement [00:25:00] working out throughout my life, I tried different things and I never could quite create a habit around it until I found weightlifting. And there's something about lifting weights, even though it ebbs and flows a little bit in my life. That the pain of it, the hard work of it is very enjoyable for me.
I love every moment of it and that's probably why I continue to go back to it. Yeah. Yeah. And you need to also be regulated in order for these habits to stick. When I'm not regulated, I'm not regulated after 7:30 PM. I like to go to sleep.
So I'm not going to say I'm going to go take this eight o'clock dance class, even though I love dancing. That's just not going to work for me because I'm tired. If I'm, it's if you get hangry, if you're hungry, angry, lonely, or tired, halt, hungry, angry, lonely, tired. If I'm any of those things, I'm not going to make a habit stick.
I'm not going to perform [00:26:00] that. I'm not going to my brain's just not going to absorb that. So it has to be something that really that's timely for me. So it has to be done in the morning for me because I'm a morning person. I realized not everyone is, and it has to be something I enjoy. Just like you said, I've tried for years to like running.
I hate it. Hate running. My body doesn't want to do it. It just doesn't. So why do I try to force myself to do that? I inevitably get hurt. You know what I like to do? I like dancing. That doesn't feel like work to me. So that's an easier habit for me to to engage in and yoga. I love yoga. Obviously that's what I've dedicated, my professional life to, because it's helped me.
So I'm going to be much more likely to stick to. A habit that involves something. I really like that my brain enjoys and I can still get endorphins from that. I don't have to just get endorphins that, that [00:27:00] feel good neurotransmitter from running snap. It's just never going to happen for me. I can look out the window and I'm drinking my coffee in the morning with my happy light on see those people running.
And it now I've worked enough on self-compassion that I can say you go get that, get it, go get it. That's great for you. Good for you. It's not for me. Instead of where I used to be like, Ugh, I should be out there. I shouldn't be doing oh, great shame, spiral. Wonderful. That's not going to help a habit. Stick to shame myself into.
Well, it becomes a threat and our survival strategy kicks in who wants to feel shame. So make it enjoyable. I think, For me, one of the tactile things I like to do besides getting all deep and introspective, which is the go-to is, I really like being able to track what I'm doing there are these journals they create a theme for the month. You pick maybe five habits.
And I color code it. I don't do every habit every day, [00:28:00] but it's a huge dopamine hit for me to be able to notice, all right, I did my PT, 50% of the time this month, look at all that blue or took my vitamins or I meditated and. I love that kind of self-monitoring cause that's what works for me, setting a habit and comparing myself to other people that has never worked normally ever.
But I really like being able to track what I'm doing and that's what and it's accountability for yourself. Right. You know, We often talk about we'll get an accountability, buddy. Well, you know, Humans are fallible. Sometimes that works. Sometimes it doesn't, we are the average of the. Five people that we hang out with the most.
Right? So like we have to be kind of look around and see who are around, but you're, you're doing all of this internally. So that's your own accountabilities is sitting down at night and visually seeing the habits that you are creating and then that's a reward for you. That's fine. Yeah. What [00:29:00] would you think you, what would you say for people who, don't feel that they have a lot of internal motivation or even, for example, ADHD, Lynn's been on our.
Before Lynn Hyland, she talks about when you have ADHD, there's usually a low level of internal pressure or internal motivation. So what are some things you would suggest Jeanne for listeners who were like, you know what, that's great for Jess glad she can internally motivate not all the time.
I'm human trust me. Right, right. But what are some external strategies that can help people? Create or sustain a new habit. And again, here's the self study. What we have to know ourselves. We have to know what motivates us. Some people are really motivated by money, so if that's the thing you're motivated by then you might want to, put a little incentive there.
If I keep up this habit then I'm going to buy myself. Uh, you know, An new outfit from Athleta that's [00:30:00] and that's what motivates me. Right. And, love that. I love my fascia medics or like a new essential oil,
so put a little bit of that energy toward it. I'm motivated by travel. I like to travel. So let's see if I, If I stick to this habit, 75% of the time, then maybe I plan a little getaway to go visit France, cause I like to travel to see friends and to be with, so I think getting to know yourself and what really does motivate you is so important. What about you? External things that motivate me. I think, when I put something on my schedule and I accomplish it, that feels really good to me.
I'm really motivated to accomplish those little squares. Calendar. Do you ever write a, to do list and just put a couple of things that you've already did so you can just cross them off. Okay. I'm not the only one. Yes. I'll be like technically this was this week's to do list, so I will write everything I've accomplished as well as the [00:31:00] things I wanted to do so that I could get the satisfaction.
Checkbox seeing that cross through it, but Nope, the check or the totally, you know, in a lot of the things that I do are motivated by, you know, regulating my body on the sleep truly. I've spent a lot of years dysregulated and when you get a taste of what regulation and ventral vagal feels like, and you start to see.
Being in that place, changes your relationships and changes your work and how you feel at the end of the day. Right? Um, A lot of that's motivating. So I moved my body for the regulation more often than not. And I. I have made a lot of changes in my thirties and early forties in order to sustain regulation.
And that brings me into a place of feeling like I'm my true self, more than anything else. [00:32:00] So I would say that's probably my biggest motivator at this point is to tap into that self energy where I'm calm and curious and playful and connected, and that motivates almost everything. And that's a result of all the habits that you have incorporated up to this point.
And, there's there, there's so many more things that are in store, which is actually exciting to, to think about that this is exciting. Neurology and, psychology that we can change. And we can introduce healthy changes at any age, I often think people say you can't teach an old dog new tricks.
You ever hear people that are just set in their ways no, you actually can change. The brain is plastic and practice makes plastic. We can change our brains. Yeah. Intention, with all the things that we've talked about. And of course we believe in, in, in being a guide for people and having that [00:33:00] person to walk on this path with us.
So whether, you know, whether it's a big change or a small change, maybe starting with that relationship with a therapist can be really \ transformational, but also just doing that self study, whether it's, with a professional or on your. Yeah, there's a lot of hope out there.
There is, it can happen. And I agree with the mindfulness and looking at our habits and what parts are contributing and what parts need more support, I think is a really important.
So I think this was a great conversation. You know, Kind of always looking for hacks out there in the world right now because we're busy. So I hope this episode is a little bit of a hack for people to skip through all the science and maybe just come here and get some tips and also remember to be compassionate towards themselves
yeah. Thanks, Jess. Thanks for sharing. Yeah, you too Jeannee. Thank you.
Thank you again for joining us on Insight Mind Body [00:34:00] Talk, a body-centered mental health podcast. We hope today's episode was empowering and supported you in strengthening your mind-body connection We're your hosts Jeanne and Jess. Please join us again as we continue to explore integrative approaches to wellbeing. Until then, take care