Insight Mind Body Talk

Ep 18: Relationship with Food and Body - An introduction to eating disorders with Ali Manley

September 19, 2021 Jessica Warpula Schultz, LMFT Season 1 Episode 18
Insight Mind Body Talk
Ep 18: Relationship with Food and Body - An introduction to eating disorders with Ali Manley
Show Notes Transcript

In Relationship with Food and Body, Jess and her guest, Alison Manley, LPC, SUDS, provide a brief introduction to eating disorders.  They discuss the difference between the various types of eating disorders, how to differentiate between eating for health and wellness and eating in a manner that has become disordered, and what the roles are of health providers on an eating disorder treatment team.
Ali is a licensed professional counselor specializing in the treatment of eating disorders and trauma. She brings a high level of expertise to the conversation, discussing the body image continuum, body liberation, the "eating disorder voice".  Ali and Jess share their passion for re-connecting the mind and body during treatment and eating disorder recovery.  And as someone with lived experience recovering from an eating disorder, Ali is passionate that recovery is possible for her clients and their loved ones.




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Produced by Jessica Warpula Schultz
Edited by Jessica Warpula Schultz

Music by Jason A. Schultz

 [00:00:00] Welcome to Insight Mind Body Talk, a body-based mental health podcast. We're your hosts, Jessica Warpula Schultz and Jeanne Kolker. Whether you've tried everything to feel better and something is still missing or you've already discovered the wisdom of the body. This podcast will encourage and support you in healing old wounds, strengthening relationships, and developing your inner potential- all by accessing the mind body connection. 

Please know, while we're excited to share and grow together. This podcast is not intended to be a substitute for mental health treatment. It doesn't replace the one-on-one relationship you have with a qualified healthcare professional and is not considered psychotherapy. 

Thanks Jess. And thank you for listening. Now, let's begin a conversation about what happens when we take an integrative approach to improving our wellbeing. Welcome to insight. Mind, body talk. Today's episode is a brief [00:01:00] introduction to eating disorders.

Why they're a real concern and a real illness. 

We'll talk about the impact an eating disorder has on a person as well as provide support in the form of strategies for coping and recovery. I'd like to take a moment though, to give a trigger warning. It's important to know that if you start to feel triggered by this information, please stop the podcast.

And when you feel ready, if you feel ready, pick up where you left off. Also, this podcast is not meant to replace the important process of therapy and receiving treatment for an eating disorder. So if you find that you identify with any of this information, please reach out to a therapist, contact your doctor, or tell someone you trust that you need help.

Our guest today is Alison Manley. Alison is a licensed professional counselor, specializing in the treatment of eating disorders and trauma. She currently works at Northern Roots Therapy Center, a [00:02:00] small private practice clinic in Madison, Wisconsin. She is training in many therapeutic modalities, including acceptance and commitment therapy, cognitive behavioral therapy, eye movement, desensitization, and reprocessing, also known as EMDR, family-based treatment and has specialized training in working with individuals affected by childhood trauma and neglect.

Ali aligns with the Health at Every Size principles and incorporates this into her work with our clients. Along with other aspects of intersectional social justice, she has worked in community mental health and private practice outpatient centers, and she has an extensive background and training in the treatment of eating disorders.

Ali currently in the process of earning her certified eating disorder specialist credential through the International Association of Eating Disorder profession. As someone with lived experience, recovering from an eating [00:03:00] disorder, Ali is passionate. That recovery is possible for her clients and their loved ones.

Ali, thank you for being here today. Welcome. Welcome to Insight Mind Body Talk. 

Thank you, Jess. I'm so delighted to be here with you today. We feel honored that you're here and that you're willing to share your expertise. I know that this is not an easy topic to give a brief introduction of, because there so many different facets to eating disorders and they're very complex.

 I appreciate that. You're willing to sit down with us and bring this information to the public and provide strategies for self-care for soothing and for healing. So thank you. Thank you so much. Absolutely again, I'm really excited to be here.

I'm so passionate about working with eating disorder, recovery, and you're right. It's a very complex issue. Eating disorders can be very [00:04:00] serious illnesses. They have the highest morbidity and mortality rate of any mental illness and and I believe that full recovery as possible. So I'm really excited to talk about this today.

Then let's begin. Why don't we start by sharing some education about eating disorders with our listeners. How would you explain what is happening when someone has an eating disorder?

 I think maybe the simplest way to describe what an eating disorder is that it's really about someone's relationship with food, with their body, with movement and with themselves that I think sometimes we can get so stuck on eating disorders, being all about the food and while, food and nourishment is an important aspect of our health, that it's also about our sense of self worth, who we are and all of the different, complicated things that happen when our relationship [00:05:00] with food and body and movement and self is, is interrupted or disturbed.

 Who's affected by eating disorders In your opinion . Oh, such a good question. And I'm so glad to be addressing that so just calling out that eating disorders, aren't a choice. They're not about you and they aren't effecting, cis-gender heterosexual, affluent, thin white women. 

In fact, eating disorders affect trans and gender non-conforming individuals at about four times. The rate that we see with cis-gender 

and eating disorders, don't discriminate, they can affect someone of any age. any ethnicity and background, and I think it's also important to acknowledge that everyone experiences an eating disorder differently 

as people don't fit well into neat little diagnostic [00:06:00] boxes, and it's also really common for someone to move across diagnosis 

That said I can speak to some of the more common types of eating disorders.

 

So there's anorexia nervosa which has really characterized by restriction by limiting one's food intake, having lots of rules and rigidity around food and movement. 

Really being in an energy deficit. Not taking in enough nourishment to, adequately. Feed one's body.

And and often being at a weight that is below where one's body is actually healthy. And I think it's important to acknowledge that is not just BMI that someone can be in a quote unquote, higher BMI, and they will be below the weight where their body is actually going to be healthy as to where they're not going to be in an energy deficit.

Then there's bulemia nervosa which is often seen when someone may [00:07:00] experience a loss of control with eating and binge eating, which we might describe as eating more food than one might normally at a meal or in a sitting 

and following that meal by using compensatory or purging behaviors could be vomiting, abuse of laxatives or diuretics, or over-exercising with the idea that the eating disorder wants someone to quote unquote undo. Also you mentioned binge eating and it has its own criteria as well, binge eating disorder, correct?

Correct. Correct. Yup. And binge eating disorder is actually quite common binge eating disorder is when an individual is often eating beyond the point of physical fullness or satiation, similarly to bulemia nervosa, there's a loss of control with, and there's often a strong sense of guilt and shame around that.

The difference between binge eating disorder and [00:08:00] bulemia nervosa is that with binge eating disorder, often an individual isn't following that binge with purging or compensating behaviors. I want to honor and talk about, or just acknowledge that often there's co-occurring mental health disorders with an eating disorder as well.

For example, anxiety or depression. Do you see that in your work? Oh, absolutely. I'd say it is so much more the rule than the exception. And I think just understanding the nuance and the complexity of eating disorders we can often see eating disorders as a way of trying to cope underlying anxiety, depression, trauma, that's showing up in the body or the mind.

And that is just, that is such a truth. And and just so important to keep in mind if you're someone that's treating someone with an eating disorder, if you're someone that's suffering [00:09:00] yourself, if you're a family member that it isn't as simple as just, looking at these symptoms and finding fixes for them, a lot of doubt and often a lot of pain and often a lot more that's coming up when we're working on eating disorder recovery.

Definitely. And again, today is just a brief introduction to this topic we'll have you back to explore specific aspects of eating disorders because they are so complex. Ali, what do you feel is the difference between, and I get this question a lot as a movement based therapist and also a fitness trainer. I have this conversation with clients and with colleagues, but what do you feel is the difference between eating for health and wellness versus something shifting or evolving into an eating disorder?

Ooh, this is a great question. This could be its own episode. [00:10:00] Couldn't it like literally this could be its own podcast. This question. So the difference between eating for health and wellness versus what might be an indication that, if someone's starting to experience an eating disorder or that maybe someone's eating isn't so quote unquote healthy. 

 One of the things that I look at is what is driving choices that we're making with food and movement 

 if we think about the experience someone might have with an eating disorder there can often be so much anxiety and fear that under lane the food choices or the movement that they're participating in.

And so one thing that I would first check in with is intention. What's my intention. Am I doing this? Because this food is nourishing me. It helps me feel sustained. I enjoy it. Or am I choosing this food or this form of movement? Because I'm trying [00:11:00] to change my body. I'm trying to shrink my body.

I'm trying to feel good enough.

 We can think about eating disorders, disordered eating and quote unquote normal or healthy eating on a continuum I think about what's the impact that someone's experiencing with their relationship with food or their body or movement. Like for instance are you are you going out on a, on a run in the evening because you like the way that, that feels it helps you feel stronger it helps you, move your body and release some stress.

I think that many of us would say that sounds like a fine choice. However if you're going on a run because there's an inner critic, that's, really yelling at you for the pizza that you ate that day. And maybe you're a friend, had invited you to to, spend some time with them in the evening.

But you're saying no to that, because there's so much fear and anxiety eight or about gaining [00:12:00] weight. That might be more what we're talking about with disordered eating. Okay. Okay. That makes a lot of sense. We both treat people with eating disorders and we both believe it's often essential to have a team 

for example, a registered dietician on the team who specializes in eating disorders or a physician who has experience treating eating disorders because of the physical health concerns. What exactly can happen to a body as a result of restricting food, purging, binge eating, or even just being hyper-focused on very specific, good foods or healthy foods.

Oh, wow. There's so much in that question. Maybe I can start just with the team aspect of recovering from an eating disorder or treating an eating disorder. Because of their complexity because there are so many different pieces going on with the body, with the brain, with relationships, [00:13:00] with anxiety, with trauma that's why we really need bare minimum therapist dietician and primary care provider on a treatment team.

Other team members could be family members, psychiatrists, friends, coaches, occupational therapists but just knowing that there are so many different pieces and really, we really need someone with specialty and a lot of those different areas for someone to get good care. And then speaking about the dietitian piece specifically.

So I want to touch on that. Cause I talk about that with my clients all the time. Why we'll work with a dietician? I know a lot about food already. Many people with eating disorders hesitate at the idea of working with a dietician. They've got lots of food info and yet they still may have some quite rigid or unhealthy relationships with food.

And I like to think of dieticians at times as nutrition therapists the person [00:14:00] that's saying eat this, don't eat that. Here you go. That working with a dietician really allows someone to explore their beliefs about food, about weight and health to learn about fullness and hunger metabolism.

Food rules. And again, like not just having someone provide the, what here's, what you eat, but really also working on the why and the how, because our bodies are impacted by, being in a state of nourishment or energy deficit. It's really important to have a team member. That's helping someone out with that piece in their recovery.

Eating disorders are not only any emotional or mental health condition, but they impact our physical health. How so? all right. So I'm going to draw a little bit from from someone's work that I've really found. So helpful. Dr. Jennifer Gowdy Ani is the author of the [00:15:00] book, sick enough entails the medical complications that can happen with an eating disorder and really what happens to our bodies when they're eating disorder behaviors that are affecting us.

And one of the things that she describes is what she likes to call the cave person brain. As humans, we're biologically wired to defend ourselves against starvation, that's just part of being a mammal. And that, historically when our mammal brains and bodies were exposed to famine that, that part of our brain responded by really starting to keep us alive when we were experiencing starvation.

And so some things that happen when we're in an energy deficit is that our body temperature can drop down because , our brain and body don't want to spend any extra calories or energy. Keeping our [00:16:00] peripheral limbs warm and so cold hands and feet or a drop in body temperature can be something that happens slowed heart rate.

And that's an important one to name that can be part of being in an energy deficit, malnourished under fad, sometimes underweight, but it doesn't have to be and sometimes someone can get some mixed messages from say a medical provider where an individual may have a slowed heart rate because their body is really slowing down in response formation.

They might get the feedback. That's great. Like your heart's healthy. And in reality, that could be a sign that, the body is not doing so well. Some other things that we might see can include lower blood pressure slow digestion. And I'll add to that, that it can be really uncomfortable, both having and recovering from an eating disorder because what might happen if someone is really limiting their energy, their food [00:17:00] intake is that the digestive tract slows down.

And so when we eat, we get really full, really fast. We can get constipated, we can have lots of those GI side effects. And so there's a lot that happens in the body when it's under nourished. And one other thing that that I'll mention too, is really how are our bodies and brains are affected by being in an energy deficit?

Is that we're less playful. We're less spontaneous. We become more rigid, more serious, and anxious, more obsessed with food. And that's another thing that can be reflective of that cave person brain. I'm really just trying to protect us from starvation, but but also highlighting how our quality of life, how our relationships how our alive ness can be affected by an eating disorder.

That makes so much sense. There just isn't a capacity in the body to play [00:18:00] because when we're under threat, it's about survival. A few other things that I'd like to mention are with purging. Number one, I'll say that it's important to dispel myths around that the both purging through vomiting, diuretics, laxatives, really not an effective way to, to prevent the absorption of calories.

And I think there's a lot of misinformation around that. And so if even one person hears that, that's really not an effective strategy, even though you may have seen it portrayed and forms of media, that's a good thing to call out. And purging can also be really dangerous. It can cause electrolyte imbalance, which then can put us at risk for cardiac problems, heart attack.

And chronic dehydration. Kidney failure can come up as a result of that. another consequence of under nourishment or restriction can be loss of bone density. And this is particularly important for [00:19:00] individuals that are still in their teens or say early twenties that if someone who is able to mend straight is not getting their period.

And that's a result of restriction that lowering estrogen can also mean that our bone health, our bone density is less protected. And so we can start to lose that bone density and have really brittle bones. Someone that's 18 could have the bone density of a 70 year old. And that's one thing that I want to highlight because while there are lots of medical consequences of eating disorders that can be reversed or attended to with recovery loss of bone density is one thing that we can't get back.

And so time to put bone density into the piggy bank, so to speak until our mid twenties. So that's another, serious medical consequence. And another reason why recovery is so important and not just letting someone, [00:20:00] quote unquote, grow out of it and seeing how time goes , because that's really where there is a health crisis.

 Let's talk about negative body image Something a lot of people struggle with, regardless of if they have a diagnosis of an eating disorder or not.

 Capitalism, this business of selling weight, loss of selling, fixing our bodies can truly harm us ali, what would you suggest to help someone alleviate the critical voice or negative body image?

So from that, I think just, calling out diet culture, and even just starting with what is diet culture. we could say that diet culture is a system of beliefs that equates the ness to health that weight loss is.

That we attain a higher status or more happiness or or more love and diet culture is also what can [00:21:00] demonize certain foods for new activities, even rest and diet culture, or process people who, don't don't fit this really narrow view of what beauty or what health is.

So with body image, just, a starting place can be talking about what is diet culture, where has this come from and where have you gotten these messages in the first place?

I often think about the wounds that are handed down generation to generation from diet culture and how, diet culture has really oppressed. So many people generationally for so long and opening that up and talking about that and honoring diet culture exists can be healing, not only for clients, but for their loved ones so with body image another way that I like to bring this into my work with clients is talking about body image [00:22:00] on a continuum.

And for many of us, if we think about body image, we might think I'm a pretty good body image or my body image is pretty lousy and it's a pretty black and white way of looking at it. And also if someone's in a place of really just hating their body, it can feel daunting to say I have a place where I love myself where I love what I look like all the time.

And so talk a little bit about the body image continuum. What does that mean body image continuum? One way that I like to explain this with my clients is if you imagine a timeline, you have a flat line and on one end is body hate or body loading. And on the very other side of that, you have body positivity or body liberation, all of this in between place.

And so body hater, body loading is when we're in this place where we really [00:23:00] want to change our body, we can't stand it. Maybe we're using eating disorder behaviors to try and change it. Our self-talk is really mean, and we're using a lot of behaviors to try and change or punish our bodies or ourselves at one end.

If we go a little bit further than we might think about this next place on the continuum as a place of body respect, And body respect means that we are tolerating our bodies and that we're taking care of them, even if we don't like them. So if I'm looking down at my tummy and there's a voice, that's really loud saying that is not okay, I am not matching the, the beauty ideal that I'm still making a choice to nourish myself to, maybe do some stretching if my back is hurting that day.

And so body respect is really about [00:24:00] how do we treat our bodies? Even if we're not in a place of liking how they look at all, and moving along the continuum, 

| we've got body acceptance. And with body acceptance, this can be us in this place of maybe I don't really my body's still, I'm still having some conflicts with the appearance or what I see in the mirror, but I'm not in this place of trying to change my body.

And I'm accepting that maybe my body needs to be here in order for me to recover from an eating disorder or in order for me to continue living a fulfilling life. And we've got two more stops on the continuum. So we've got body appreciation after that. And with body appreciation, that's where we're really expressing gratitude for what our bodies allow us to do.

So I might have appreciation that my arms can reach the top shelf of my cupboard and I can grab that last that's far away, or my legs can [00:25:00] carry me across the room or or that my lap can support, a little kid as they sit there and bounce around. And so body appreciation is honoring the function of our bodies and also, really centering what are our values and how can appreciation for our bodies allow us to further connect with them.

Yeah. Finally, at the very end of the continuum, we have body positivity. We could also call it body liberation. We could also call it body love. And at this place, it means that we're enjoying the body that we have. We're not beating ourselves up or or trying to change it, or giving ourselves flack for changes that happen naturally with aging or pregnancy or, or what have you.

And we're in a place of gratitude and compassion. We're not [00:26:00] internalizing that cultural pressure to be perfect. And we're celebrating body diversity that there is such a broad range of bodies that aren't so commonly depicted in the quote, unquote beauty ideal. And that is something that we are actively celebrating. talking about body image on a continuum, I think makes it so much more reachable and accessible. We need to remind ourselves that we don't have to constantly be in a place of loving every square inch of our body. 24 7. It is okay to move up and down this continuum and we can be in a place of body respect or body neutrality.

We don't have to get to body love or liberation, not everyone does. And I think that also needs to be honored. I agree. 

I also see so much of eating disorder recovery as challenging our own inner critic or our own [00:27:00] internalized oppressor the eating disorder voice, we can maybe describe as the inner dialogue that's going on and when they're thinking about food, what am I going to eat? How much movement have I done and so on. And and I think for many people that the eating disorder voice can, start out with, as simple of a thing, as I'm going to try and eat a little bit more healthy, or I'm going to try and move more.

But as someone, gets further into their eating disorder, that voice can become really loud, really unforgiving and really mean. Yeah. Yeah. How does one begin to work with that voice? So with the eating disorder of wise, I draw from a few different models and approaches here.

I love bringing in parts work or IFS and exploring, like, where did this part for show [00:28:00] up? What is its job? What might it be afraid of? I also like to bring in a model that has come from Carolyn Costin's work. Who's the author of Eight Keys to Recovery from an Eating Disorder.

And she talks about making a distinction between the eating disorders. And the healthy self. And recognizing first that either for taking a parts work IFS lens, or we're looking at the healthy self and the eating disorder itself, it's important to recognize that we, or an individual suffering from an eating disorder, isn't their eating disorder, orienting those thoughts.

They have all of that noise going on in their head. And yet, like they are so much more complicated of a person that's maybe a part of them. That's maybe some thoughts that they're experiencing that they're witnessing. And that is not the whole person. I appreciate that. It reminds me of narrative therapy the person is not the problem they're experiencing.

 Which we [00:29:00] can often over identify with these parts, we become blended with them and we start to internalize and believe that critical voice, because it is powerful or those feelings do exist. We start to believe that's our truth. That's who we are. 

 For some people, those eating disorder thoughts are, egosyntonic and what do you mean I have this eating disorder itself for other people, like maybe someone with bulemia or binge eating disorder.

That can be a relief to say oh, that's not me, but I'm sick of this. I don't want this inside me. Get rid of it. That's You're right. It's an episode into itself. Suffice to say like someone is not their eating disorder voice, it can help to just start to pay attention to, what that voice is saying.

Maybe notice if there are certain themes that, says over and over again. To be curious about where those rules or those sheds have come from, and [00:30:00] to also work on strengthening your healthy self that we think about parts work. The idea is that all parts are welcome. And even though we talk about eating disorders as very serious, dangerous illnesses, and they are that if we consider that eating disorder part, that part has a really important role.

And in some really important things to say often that can go back to dealing with anxiety or attachment or trauma. And so we don't want to demonize this part, but we also don't want to get too enamored with it either. All of our parts have a positive intention. They're usually almost always trying to bring safety and regulation and decreased distress.

And when we tell parts, get out of here, you're not wanted that doesn't make them go away often. That creates a lot of internal conflict and distress. So it's not the part [00:31:00] that has to go away, but it's maybe their method of how they're trying to help with anxiety or trying to sooth the wounds of younger parts.

And how can we be curious exactly on if this voice, this ed part or this eating disorder voice showed up, when did it, how has it been trying to help and how can we allow that part to heal as well? Versus tell it to go. Exactly. Exactly. If we can really be curious about this part that we can maybe identify that it's sending out in the alarm system and from people eating disorder, behaviors are a way of coping and we need ways to cope.

And we don't want to just take away someone, yeah. Eating disorder behaviors and their coping skills and give them nothing and that's place. But if we work on strengthening, someone's healthy self and say, rather than reaching out to this eating disorder behavior, can you reach out to someone [00:32:00] else?

Can you practice that connection? Or can you reach within you and in scenic resource inside that can be a path to healing? I'm sure you'd agree. The mind-body connection is an extremely important aspect of eating disorder treatment from my perspective. And I believe when we start to reintegrate that mind and body and heal that relationship it can be transformative.

What are your thoughts on ways a person can begin to bridge the gap and heal that mind, body relationship that can happen because of trauma because of anxiety or because of symptoms from an eating disorder. How do we get back to that whole self. One thing that I talk about with my clients often is that eating disorders are dissociative in nature.

It's a way for us to disconnect from our bodies and try and live as [00:33:00] much as possible up on our heads with the rules, with the criticism and in some ways that can mean that we're experiencing less pain, less distress as those emotions show up in our body. At the same time, we're disconnected from ourself.

We're disconnected from our body and our feelings in life gets really gray and dull. And so you're standing that, that complexity of the eating disorder, it's not just about the symptoms. It's not just about the food, but it's often about disconnecting from the body. So how do we get back to the body?

How do we connect again? one place that we might start is just practicing awareness of our state. Am I hungry? How do I know? Am I, and how do I know that? Am I feeling happy? Am I feeling angry? Am I feeling tired? And for many people suffering from eating disorders, that's something that [00:34:00] needs to be practiced.

So that we can have that understanding that our body can really be a resource and a place of wisdom. And the, we can get back to a place where we're feeling, more, more able to do that more connected. And so just starting with that awareness and my hungry and my full and my anxious and my tired.

And what might that tell me? Polyvagal theory, watching the autonomic state shifts and Deb Dana said that first step is noticing, and when we can notice what's happening in the system, we can engage with it versus it consuming us.

And mindful awareness is often the first step. And if you think about it neurologically the moment you're bringing mindfulness to something you're getting back to the front of your brain, where you have logic and decision-making, and the system feels safer and calmer. 

Another thing that comes to mind with, healing that [00:35:00] relationship between the mind and body is the concept of intuitive eating. And in intuitive eating is as a way of approaching food choices, eating that really is focused on honoring our hunger, our fullness cues, rather than just going off of what our head is saying or what the eating disorder voice is saying or what diet culture is saying.

 Another thing that I'd say with intuitive eating is that depending on where someone is in their recovery it may not be the starting place for them, but maybe more of an end goal. Say someone has anorexia or bulimia or binge eating disorder. All of those eating disorders can really disrupt our connection to our hunger and fullness cues.

And so if we just try to jump back into the body and say, I'm going to eat when I'm hungry and stop when I'm full, but we haven't really had that practice with a more regular pattern of eating. It's probably gonna set us [00:36:00] up for frustration. And someone might be ready to jump right into intuitive eating someone else may not yet be.

Ali, how does a person start to begin to reconnect with their body through movement in recovery or post recovery?

 I think the principles from Health at Every Size can be really helpful with providing some guidance to this question. So Health at Every Size or HAES is a non diet paradigm that really focuses on health and instead of diet, instead of weight and with HAES that's where we're understanding that fat is not equal to unhealthy, thin is not equal to healthy and weights not equated with success or worth or health or status.

And when it comes to movement, one of the HAES principles is life enhancing movement. We might consider what movement is someone, able to engage in with their body? And we might consider will this movement.

Help with [00:37:00] my feelings about myself, with my physical health as well. I think a good guide can be really focusing on how does it feel when you engage in that movement rather than how many meals did I run? How many reps did I do? How many calories did I burn?

And as this movement really, bringing me to a place of joy, am I feeling embodied? Am I enjoying this rather than, does this feel punishing? Does this feel like something that I have to do? And that's what I hope to see with someone that's really in this place of joyful movement or life enhancing movement, as opposed to, exercise that might be more connected to an eating disorder rule or behavior.

 We're really looking at movement as a place of joy and connection to oneself. 

 With movement, rather than being in this place of, I have to do this kind of thinking. We really want to focus on what it feels like. We want to focus [00:38:00] on that sense of pleasure, what feels good and remind ourselves that movement.

Isn't a moral obligation. We are not using it to earn food and that we have choice and also the right to rest. 

And I'll say one more thing about body positivity or liberation, just naming that a lot of body positivity and liberation, goes back to the sixties and fat activism and that there is a lot of labor that's been done by individuals and larger bodies to, to fight for this liberation.

And I think that there's been a co-opting of body positivity and, sometimes we can conflate it with this kind of false liberation the sense that body positivity it's just for white cis-women and with body positivity or body liberation, we're really trying to honor [00:39:00] the, the experiences.

All sorts of individuals, those that have been oppressed, those that are differently abled, those that are in queer bodies and black and brown bodies. And actively challenging that we can only like, or love our bodies if we're aligning up with that, that ideal that's really rooted in white supremacy, capitalism enablism is just so central to that healing of our body image.

 Ali. Thank you. Thank you for all the wisdom you have shared with us today I'm really grateful that you're here. Thank you. Thank you so much, Jess.

This has been a pleasure. 

 Thank you again for joining us on Insight Mind Body Talk, a body-centered mental health podcast. We hope today's episode was empowering and supported you in strengthening your mind-body connection We're your hosts Jeanne and Jess. Please join us again as we continue [00:40:00] to explore integrative approaches to wellbeing. Until then, take care.