Alcohol Use During the Holidays, with guest Jeff Peterson

Alcohol use during the holiday season. Join Jeff Peterson, LCSW, as he discusses his journey of recovery. Hear how Jeff uses his experience to support others and get tips for managing the stress of the holiday season without reaching for your favorite glass of wine.  

A must listen for anyone curious about sobriety or interested in changing their relationship with alcohol.


Continue Learning

• SMART Recovery
• Holly Whitaker
  • Author, Quit Like a Woman
• Annie Grace
  • Author, This Naked Mind
• Alcoholics Anonymous
• Consumer guide for finding and choosing alcohol and other drug treatment programs in the state of Wisconsin
  • here
• Recommendations from Jeff 
  • Podcasts
    • Bubble Hour
    • This naked mind
    • Dopey
  • Books
    • The Unexpected Joy of Being Sober by Catherine Gray 
    • Alcohol explained 
    • This naked mind  
    • The alcohol experiment 
    • We are the luckiest  
    • Blackout: Remembering the Things that I Drank to Forget by Sarah
    • Hepola 
    • Unwasted: My Lush Sobriety by Sacha Z. Scoblic 
    • Lit: A Memoir by Mary Karr 
    • Beautiful Boy 
    • Tweak 
    • AA Big book 
    • NA basic text 
  • Movies
    • He wont get far on foot 
    • My name is Bill 
    • Clean and sober 
    • The lost weekend 
    • Days of Wine and roses 
    • Smashed 
    • When a man loves a woman 
    • Gia 
    • 28 days 
    • Bill W  
  • Local (Madison, WI) meetings
    • ACOA- https://adultchildren.org/ 
    • Madison AA- https://aamadisonwi.org/ 
    • Madison NA- https://badgerlandna.org/ 
    • Madison Alanon- https://sites.google.com/site/alanondistrict8madison/home 
    • Madison Smart Recovery :  https://smartrecoverymadisonwi.org/ 

Produced by Jessica Warpula Schultz
Music by Jason A. Schultz

Insight Mind Body Talk. Also, check out our e-courses!

Transcript

Welcome to Insight Mind Body Talk, a body-based mental health podcast. We're your hosts, Jessica Warpula Schultz and Jeanne Kolker. Whether you've tried everything to feel better and something is still missing or you've already discovered the wisdom of the body. This podcast will encourage and support you in healing old wounds, strengthening relationships, and developing your inner potential- all by accessing the mind body connection. 

Please know, while we're excited to share and grow together. This podcast is not intended to be a substitute for mental health treatment. It doesn't replace the one-on-one relationship you have with a qualified healthcare professional and is not considered psychotherapy. 

Thanks Jess. And thank you for listening. Now, let's begin a conversation about what happens when we take an integrative approach to improving our wellbeing. Welcome to Insight Mind Body Talk. My name is Jess. I'm a licensed marriage and family therapist, trauma informed fitness expert, and your host. Today's topic is something many people are familiar with, especially in the state of Wisconsin, alcohol use during the holiday season.

Our guest today is Jeff Peterson, a licensed clinical social worker who specializes in addiction and recovery. Jeff has a strong dedication to advocating for social justice and equal rights for the underserved and marginalized members of our communities. As a therapist here at Insight Counseling and Wellness, he uses a person-centered strengths based framework, and Jeff welcomes working with adults of all genders, ethnicities, races, and abilities.

Jeff, welcome to Insight Mind Body Talk. Thanks, Jess. It's great to be here. I listened to all the prior ones and insight to be part of this. That's awesome. Thank you. You're maybe one of like three people who have heard them all. I'm just kidding. But I do appreciate that. Thank you. Mm-hmm. , I'm, I'm really glad you're here.

Um, I think that substance use, especially alcohol use, which we chose kind of to narrow this down a little bit, go from substance use to just discussing alcohol use. It impacts so many lives, whether. You know, you're the one using or not, or you're the family member or partner of someone using. I think that this episode especially will speak to a lot of people, I think.

Yeah. Yeah. And, and you know, and it aligns with your idea. So listeners, it was Jeff's idea to have this topic align with the holidays. And I appreciate that because when you add in the stress of the season, you know, as therapists, we know that support validation resources become even more important around recovery during this time of year.

So again, thank you for being. Well, it's good to be here. And I think we kind of talked about the beginning of this time together is, um, and that would be really important to me is to share a bit of my story Yeah. Um, related to recovery. And I think one thing that's really, you know, important to start with is, you know, saying, I've been in the mental health field for 20 years and only recovered.

Or only started the process of my own recovery three years ago. Wow. You know, and, and the dissonance of being a professional in the field and, you know, knowing to some degree throughout for years that, that I was at, at the very least, the, uh, problem drinker or drinking was not certainly serving me in the way that.

Um, would, would want it to, or that I would share with, with clients. Um, so I think the reason I wanted to start with that is, is that I think sometimes folks think that the therapist is, you know, maybe like, I don't know better at this than, um, other people, which. Is, is flattering, and yet, you know, we are fallible and, and, and we experience the human condition as they say in, in the same ways as everyone else.

And that's really a cornerstone in the recovery process is, is just acknowledging where we are at truly with. With our relationship with the substance. And that's, you know, for, for our topic today, it's with alcohol. And in coming to that understanding of where we actually are, helps plot, um, I like to use this analogy, plot up a map with a direction.

And if I was saying to someone, I'll meet you in Madison. Well, the direction, the where they are in the, in the state or in the world or in the country really matters because if you're in Canada, you have to head south. If you're in Florida, you'd have to head north. And we, and, and if we don't know where we are, the likelihood of us getting to where we want to be is not as strong as if we knew where we are.

And so at some. We all have to come to terms with where we actually are, to then know where we want to go. And oftentimes in in alcohol recovery or alcohol abuse, there are, there are markers, um, there are things that happen, um, that say, geez, maybe you're not where you think you or are. And that could be fights with spouses, discord with friends and family charges or legal trouble.

Things like that, or just hangovers, you know? Mm-hmm. never come across anyone that says I love a hangover, um, mm-hmm. . And, and yet oftentimes the behavior to, um, to minimize that or to eradicate that from our life is, is, is more complex than we would want it to be. Mm-hmm. and that's how I lived a lot of my life, is really normalizing.

The, the destruction or the ineffective, uh, at the very least, um, relationship I had with alcohol. Mm-hmm. , and that started at a pretty young age. I, I'm not originally from Wisconsin, but there are a lot of parallels. Um, I grew up on the east coast. Um, I felt a lot of, um, as a young person, I, I saw the men in, in the world that I grew up in.

with alcohol as a center of their being. Um, and paired, unfortunately with anger. So anger and alcohol as a, as a male dominant trait that indirectly, um, I aspired to be. At the time I didn't realize, uh, the, the negatives associated with that I saw. You know, tough men doing what they do and having drinks and things.

And I thought, wow, okay. That's, that's what men do. And so the identity pieces of, of, of, of alcohol and relationship with alcohol were considerable. For me, and this is kind of my, of course, my story of. Identity and, and alcohol and, and things kind of meshed. And for folks of all identities, intersecting identities and, and where we're raised and where we come from, certainly plays.

Roles in, in that as we young people, uh, develop a sense of identity and purpose and, and things in the world. If, if they're influenced by trauma or if they're experiencing traumas and unhealthy relationships and drugs and alcohol in there, things fuse together perhaps in a way that. We don't notice.

Maybe at the time, a lot of this is quite certainly retrospective for me of having done the work. Sure. Yet here, but really wanna say, I'm gonna talk about the, the relationship with, with my identities and masculinity and alcohol, but it is certainly not. Solely a male problem by any stretch. Um, and all identities and people with varying identities will have their own relationship, um, in, in, in their own unique way.

There are some parallels I and themes, uh, certainly that I hope people can draw from. Um, but I would really spend, I'm gonna spend some time today just talking about my own personal. Experience and, and things like that. And urge folks to, to do some, some looking at, at what this may look like for them if, if they're considering, um, uh, their relationship with alcohol, uh, considering changing a relationship with alcohol.

And, um, and so yeah, I had, um, several of those, you know, warning signs that we talked. . Um, and I talk about 'em sometimes as stop signs. I just kind of blew through, or certainly, certainly yield signs. Um, and, and just the relationship of the, the culture we're in to say, this is, this, this is the normalization of alcohol and the culture like we've talked about is so high that, um, it's, it can be hard to distinguish.

Is this a problem? Is it like what everyone's doing? And even if it is what everyone's doing, how is it for me? Mm-hmm. , how does it truly affect me? My sense of who I am, how I act, how the people in my life perceive me, how I treat them. And over time that dissonance grows of. Yeah. But you know mm-hmm. . Yeah.

But I'm, I'm a good person. Yeah. You can be a very, you can be a good person and, and not do good things. Um, and, and alcohol tends to, you know, it's a disinhibitor like we talk about, and, and it can disinhibit, um, the filters we have and make us, um, behave in different ways than we would. Sober. And so my urge is really for folks who are, who are thinking about their relationship with alcohol is to, is to talk to the people they love and trust and, um, respect.

So, therapists, peers, um, There's so much great stuff out. We'll talk about resources later. But, you know, we, we live in the digital age and, and we can, we can find whatever we're looking for. Sometimes the question is, you know, um, uh, again, that map idea, uh, are we looking for the things we actually need or are we looking for what we want to hear?

Mm-hmm. , so mm-hmm. . So my, my, my story kind of comes to a, a. Um, it, it wasn't, and, and we don't need, um, we talk a lot about the, uh, what was your bottom or what was the thing that tipped the scales. And sometimes people have that, like a, a DUI or a divorce or something really significant and other times it's a cumulative effect.

Mm-hmm. And I would describe, like, that's what it was for me, cuz I, I. I would say there, there could have been a hundred, uh, bottoms or things that objectively looking back could have been the catalyst that that weren't. And there's no right or wrong way to do it. But if, if, if you're feeling done, then, then that's good enough.

Yeah. And that is the way to approach this. It's interesting that, you know, I read this somewhere. It's one of the only things that when you tell somebody you don't do that anymore, they say, oh, do you have a problem? Yeah. So I quit smoking. Someone says, congrat, you good for you . It's such a good point. Yeah.

I don't drink anymore. And they say, oh, what happened? What happened to you? Oh, I'm so sorry. And it's a really confusing message. Mm-hmm. , it makes it maybe make some folks feel like. It makes you want to conceal things too. I think it, I think there is some secrecy in that not disclosing these things that have happened before.

Fear of judgment. Mm-hmm. . Mm-hmm. . So in that, that piece, I hit on a bit of dissonance of, you know, act saying, Certain things of how I want to be, and then acting a different way that that is, that brings up such inner turmoil and difficulty. And so hearing that voice inside of you that says, this isn't, this isn't who you want to be, this isn't how you want to act.

And then taking the steps towards, um, making those changes and knowing for most folks that are, are considering this, it was a slow. Yeah. And unfortunately will be a bit of a slow recovery. Um, however, hopefully that helps put in perspective that you can't get sober for one year in one day. Mm-hmm. , that's where this whole one day at a Time thing comes from.

It, it touches on the stuff that us therapists love of controlling what we can and accepting the things. We cannot, um, big tenets of, of, of most recovery programmers. So, you know, that was, that's a bit of my outline of, of where I was, how things were and how things are. I guess I would add a little bit more of.

The freedom of not having that inner conflict, inner turmoil related to this. Specifically, as I said before, you know, we have our things. We're human just like everybody else. So this doesn't mean I, I'm in, I'll call recovery, so everything else is great. In fact, that is absolutely not the case. However, I can say with a hundred percent certainty that things would be worse.

Mm-hmm. harder. Difficult, whatever, whatever word or phrase we wanna put on it. If I was still drinking mm-hmm. , better therapist, better father, better partner, um, better everything without alcohol in my life. And, and I'm very thankful that, that I am where I am and, and very proud of, of the journey. And I would like to send that message out that, Sometimes there is, um, pride in the how much you can drink or how much you can, um, um, do and, and switching that and, and finding, um, pride in, in recovery and in, in other, in the change process.

That can be a real powerful, um, tool. And there are so many folks out there that, that are willing and able to. Mm-hmm. . Well, I just appreciate you bringing the lens of that. This, there isn't maybe some big rock bottom that we're waiting for, if anyone's kind of questioning their behaviors or, or feeling that that dissonance between, you know, their, what they're doing and, and how they're feeling versus like who they know they are.

That, you know, it reminds me of. Holly Whitaker has this book like a Woman and I, I really appreciate her book and she does a lot of education on, you know, our obsession with alcohol and our culture and how it's actually not our fault that, you know, we were really sold this lie that alcohol is a carcinogen and that it, you know, all the effects that it has on who we are and our bodies and our minds, and, and, and we were sold and told that it's like, The elixir of life.

Right. Which maybe Annie as well, that might be her, her thing to say that as well. Right. But, um, so I was on her website earlier today just kind of reminding myself of why I love her so much and, and she had an Instagram post where the, the redo of sex in the City. So this HBO show that a lot of people loved in the two thousands, um, and its recent resurgence and how her book was feature.

On the show, um, Charlotte, this character sends it through Amazon to her friend. Just like, didn't, not as a gift, like, doesn't know it's from Charlotte, but she knows Charlotte sent it to her and she's kind of complaining about it, of like, you know, why do you, why am I getting this book in the mail? Like, why do I have a problem?

I'm fine. But it, it highlighted, at least Holly felt like it really highlighted the journey of so many people where our culture's really normalized. You know, like this character on the show takes a shot at 10:00 AM before she goes to her first returning to college class. Or you know, where we pit stop and we have something to drink in between something else or that it's, we've just normalized all these habits around alcohol and that you don't have to be the person who says yes.

I've hit rock bottom now, so now I know I should stop that. That there's so many people out there that, you know, it's not our fault that maybe we are going through those yield signs, as you say, because you know, it is, you know, glorified and yet if you talk about having a problem, then there's a lot of shame around it.

So it is quite the conundrum. Yeah, that's a great way to put it. The conundrum, the um, And the, the, the sense of belonging, I think came up for me as you were talking and with the normalization of it. How do you step out of that, that community that, that you have built for better or worse? It has, it becomes your community.

Mm-hmm. and intentionally alienating yourself from your community. That is frighten. It's really difficult. I've, I'm not currently sober by any means, but I've, um, experimented, what do they call it? Like, um, what is kind of, when people take time out in their lives, like in 2020, I, I took a break from any substance for.

Six months. Like super curious. Yes, yes. Kind of like that. Yeah. Because I, you know, my family on both sides has alcohol and drug concerns and I was really raised with an awareness of, to like monitor what I was. Doing in regards to substances. Um, it was really important to my mom that we, we always kind of knew to keep that in our back of our minds.

And so it's always been a conversation with my therapist and I about like, what are my habits and where is this taking me and does this feel good for me? And um, so periodically throughout my adult life I've stepped away. And I will tell you that the longing for community is almost always what starts, why I go back to drinking again cuz it's so isolating.

Yeah, it's, and. Suddenly you just feel yourself like pulling back from many interactions. And you know, here we are talking about the holidays, right? And we, you know, we kind of, I mean this is a bigger conversation, but it's, you know, the theme is to even, like, how do we cope with, you know, that aspect even during a season where, Everyone has permission to indulge in anything they wanna indulge in.

And yet there's lots of trauma that's activated around holiday events and like you said, and then mixing in substances and other things like that. And then you bring in community and belonging that no wonder anyone who is considering, you know, becoming sober, um, or is sober, maybe experiencing some difficulties in that, in that area, or feeling just really.

Yeah. Yeah, very much so. Um, we and holidays bring celebration at times. They also bring considerable stress, and that's what we talk about a lot and, um, in recovery circles is, you know, Things are great. Let's have some, let's have cheers. Let's have a drink. Mm-hmm. things. Boy, am I stressed or Wow. This, I think I'll, I think I'll have a drink.

So again, that, that conundrum and then we're gathering. With family oftentimes, or friends or people we care about. Um, and there's history there. Mm-hmm. and history that is shared history that is both, you know, positive, negative, neutral. Um, and, and, you know, often talk about the, the habit of, you know, just unconsciously heading for the, the, the drink.

Um, because that, We've done. So we're talking about, you know, uh, rituals, uh mm-hmm. culture, um, uh, all sorts of traditions, things like that. And, and how to look at that and, and, and say, initially the thought becomes, well, why would I give that up? And, and finding ways to remain connected to. People who maybe are drinking, um, while on your journey, either, you know, it, it doesn't have to be a sober journey, it can be a, um, just a process of changing the relationship with alcohol.

And I think you mentioned Annie and I wondered if that was Annie Grace and she talked. Yes. I could not remember her last name, but I knew you would know it. So thank you. Any grace. She's wonderful. And she recently, uh, you know, was listening to her podcast and. She is a moderate drinker now, and at first was, um, you know, was, was sober for years and, and had changed her relationship with alcohol and started drinking again, um, in a way that she feels okay with and is, is very open about.

And so the journey towards sobriety or towards changing that relationship, I think it has to be your. Um, yeah, there are templates out there, there are stories, there are support people. And yet, as you know, you and I can sit here and say, um, that we know that, um, all these, if you followed a a a plan, it, it likely would work, but.

We as humans want, kind of wanna do it our own way to some degree. Yeah. And honoring that's important, especially when we're, uh, especially if you're, uh, making changes and doing things differently. The connection with oneself is so important. Um, It becomes a little tricky of saying, well, I want to do it my way.

And sometimes that the, the response is, well, your way got you here. Um, and, and while that holds water to some degree, there does need to be an element of, of, of self preservation in there. Mm-hmm. and of finding, um, finding what works for, for the individual is really. Well, and you know, not to keep mentioning Holly would occur, but I mean, I, I just really connected, like with a lot of her philosophies around this topic.

And you know, in her book she explained even, you know, for example, where the, you know, where AA originated. And not to say that, you know, alcoholics Anonymous doesn't work for some people or na and so in no way am I knocking that right now, but she really gives a lot of research on that. You know, even the idea.

Saying you're powerless against something. And she says, well, let's take that from a gendered perspective for like women, let's say. Right? There's so many times we have been culturally conditioned, well, not so many, pretty much our entire life is a cultural conditioning of giving away our power. And AA comes from the viewpoint of these older, white, privileged men who, in a way thought they were on top of the world and they had all the power that they needed and they needed to hear, or they needed more power in their opinion.

Probably they needed to hear they were powerless. To like have a shift in their dynamic in the way that they were doing something. But that maybe right now, that that message doesn't resonate for a lot of different people, of different communities who have been marginalized or oppressed. Right. And so to say you have to, you know, I don't wanna, you know, AA is the way, well, I completely agree with you, that it really does have to, in some way be your own individual journey.

And one that feels empowering and one that really feels important to like who you are and what your values are, maybe not someone else's value system. Yeah, well said. Absolutely. And, and, um, that, that, um,

it reminds me of the, I was talking with, um, Joe, another one of our therapists who does some substance use work too, and the idea. The difference between saying I can't and I choose not to. Yeah. Where, where is the, where do we put our intervention? Where do we, what power? Where do we find our power? And I really appreciate, um, the, the white male heteronormative nature of aa, you bringing up that, that is an absolute, um, it's a fact.

It, it, it, it has history rooted in, in, in that, and, And so how to, how to look at the options in front of us and, and think about our history, our identities, and what can be, um, successful. I think, I think the thing too is saying what is the goal? Is the goal to be abstinent? Is the goal to moderate? What is the goal and how, what is the, that avenue look like to, to get me there?

And who can help. Mm-hmm. is aa right? For this individual is smart recovery, I think. Mm-hmm. . So that's another, there's so many, um, books to read, Annie Grace's book and, um, the, that other, the other, uh, person you mentioned, Holly, um, and then, um, And these are wonderful things. And, and can it be done, um, individually and not with a group?

I, I would say so. Um, and if, if there is that feeling of wanting a community, which we're, we're pack animals. We, yeah, we are social beings for the most part, even introverted folks. I tend to be more introverted myself. There is power in in group as well and of. You know, knowing that other people are struggling and other people have recovered.

So looking and knowing, you know, what it is that you are bringing into this and what could be helpful in, in the path you're on. And then kind of, you know, searching for things that meet that and not forcing yourself to sit in a room that feels oppressive to you. Mm-hmm. . Demands you believe in a higher power.

That certainly isn't the only way. And thankfully there have been some workarounds and some ways that AA has kind has tried to address this. But it's not going to be one size fits all. We are not one size fits all beings. going back to the yield or stop signs, you know, if someone is listening and they're wondering, you know, where are they on this globe and they're headed towards Madison, like mm-hmm.

how, how would you support them in maybe, what are some of the signs that is alcohol is starting to be potentially problematic for themselves? Sure. Yeah. I went. Even as basic as, as having a hangover. Mm-hmm. and knowing. That is almost never the intended reason to have a drink. And so if things are happening more frequently than you would like, whether it's hangovers or arguments with others, or acting frankly in ways that you're not proud of and alcohol was involved, well that sounds like an opportunity to, again, change that relationship.

Is alcohol use serving you? Is, it can be the good question. How or how is it serving you? Um, and then, you know, that's that knowing where we are and, and being truthful and saying, geez, I, you know, I'm having more hangovers than I would want. Or, I notice I'm, I'm really, really find myself wondering, will there be alcohol there?

Um, you. And, and do I having a, a drink perhaps before you go and do something to make it easier. Mm-hmm. , now maybe you're, you just don't actually want to do that thing. Um, and, and then, um, addressing like what that means. Like maybe it's a, uh, a group that you don't necessarily want to hang out with or it's an anxiety process that could.

Um, addressed in a different way, and I think that's really important too, is the, the co-occurring nature of, of substance use concerns and mental health concerns, um, and using, you know, alcohol to cope. Um, and, and when is it, uh, when is using alcohol to cope problematic? And I think the, the kind of basic answer is when, when you go to.

That's that coping more frequently than is effective for you. And I think that happens with all I know that happens with all sorts of coping. So we talk about a diverse toolbox of coping and what to reach for when you're feeling this way, when you're feeling that way. Um, and. You know, we, even things like exercise, which you are, uh, an expert in, if that was the only coping skill you had, what happens when you get injured?

Mm-hmm. ? Um, I've seen it. I've seen it. Yeah. Mm-hmm. . And that can really, so what happens when alcohol is the only coping skill we have and we realize, oh no, that's a, that's become its own problem. Mm-hmm. , that can be a. Dark or scary plays. What do I do now? Um, so, so whatever we're talking about, a diverse toolbox of coping is gonna be recommended, and certainly if we're overusing.

Distractions, right. Or we're overusing, um, you know, avoidance. These things can be distraction and avoidance can be very helpful, very called for mm-hmm. , depending on the situation, what's happening, what you need at that time. However, if every, if we distract or avoid all the time, that pile of things to deal with gets bigger and bigger.

Mm-hmm. . So a beginning could even be, you know, just looking at. Looking at our support systems, looking at our general health and wellness, and considering adding something in, even if, even before we switch, or before you make an alcohol change. The change could be, I'm gonna do a little workout before I have, um, my nightly glass of wine, or, um, whatever it may be putting.

Putting some buffers in there from that automatic response of, Ooh, that was a rough day. Alcohol. Mm-hmm. , that was a rough day. Let me, you know, do let me do some exercise or debrief or journal or all that. And then that glass of wine is not alone. It is not the only thing. It's less likely to lead to. Six bottle.

Mm-hmm. , and again, I'm talking over time. Um, and, and this, this general wellness principles of, of identifying the need or the, the thing that's happening for us and what would, what our needs are and what are available to us. Um, alcohol's readily available all over the place. So we're back to that social mm-hmm.

piece and, and, and the social messaging, which is, which is pretty strong. But also Insight is pushing, not pushing, but advertising and providing, um, yoga, ecstatic dance, mindfulness, podcasts like this, using the resources available, um, while making some change, I guess would be my, or while consider. If this is problematic or if a change is needed, you can never have too many coping skills.

No, and the way you describe it, it sounds so compassionate and gentle, right? It, it, it sounds, you know, when even introducing the idea of let's add things before we take things away, or even while we're comp, you know, considering, you know, contemplation. It sounds like, like such a gentle and kind way of treating ourselves, like, Hey, I just wanna give you more, I wanna give you more options for the anxiety you're feeling.

I wanna give you more options for that wound that was just triggered, right? Or for that overwhelm or that shut down feeling because you deserve to have more than this, just this one. And, and, um, You know, hearing you talk about it, I would just imagine. I mean, it creates space. Even in me hearing you describe that like, oh, space and space feels good.

And when there's space, I don't feel trapped. And when there's space, I have options and I can be more intentional. Intentional on what I'm doing and saying and how I'm being. And that to me just already feels like, you know, shame reduction 1 0 1, right, is just that compassion and that space. And so I really appreciate you bringing it up.

Yeah, I, I appreciate the, the, the response and, uh, shame reduction 1 0 1 is definitely gonna be used again, uh, by me , because I love it. And, and, and shame and guilt do come hand in hand with Yeah. Talking about here with, uh, Anything we're trying to change probably has some aspect of, of shame or guilt or, you know, another, you know, sex in the city thing would be the, the shoulds, you know, don't should on yourself.

Mm-hmm. . Um, and, and we get a lot of that messaging, so, um, So really being critical of the, uh, the messaging we receive and taking things as truths. It can be a great, and that's again, Annie Grace, the alcohol experiment. See what happens when you do sober January, you know? Mm-hmm. . Uh, keep a journal. Um, notice your sleep eating relationships during sober January, or a period of time in which you, you've made a, a small but potentially temporary change.

Um, and, and gather evidence cuz um, there's evidence out there we can find what we're looking for and if we're open and receptive to what we're gonna find. It'll be a clearer picture than, you know, the, the research bias of going out and looking for what we want. Um, mm-hmm. tends, tends to keep us stuck. So what do people do next then?

Do you think? Like if someone is, you know, contemplating sober January, or their relationship with, you know, alcohol substances, you know, how do they support themselves? Like how do they do this? Yeah. Yeah. And I think, you know, you hit something really great about the gentleness, um, you know, and. Thinking about it now, I guess since it's, you know, December 5th of what, what would it be like to do this in, uh, the next month and, um, coming up with reasons to.

To try it. If, if, if that's what we're you're looking to do and contemplating make a, a pros, cons list. And I love making a like that four quadrant pros, cons of mm-hmm. . It's the pro of, of doing it. The, the pro of not doing it, the con, you know? Um, and those are great. Yes. No, keep explaining it. So it's the pros of doing Yeah.

You explain it because some people may never have heard of the short plot version. Yeah, so the, the, and, and the, the one that's coming up for me is the, it's in, um, uh, D B T, uh, workbooks, which I, which I love and love the modality of D B T for and for substance use or alcohol use, um, it can be, uh, extremely helpful modality.

So it's a four quadrants of picture, just a, a, like a lowercase t. Um, and then, uh, along the, and it, it's described in D B T as. Giving into the urges. So it, it can be very appropriate here, the urge to drink. So what is the pro of giving into it? The urge to drink or to drinking, or any negative or behavior you've identified as wanting to change?

The pros of it, the cons of it, and then the pros of not doing it and the cons of not doing it and it provides instead of a, you know, Binary or a dualistic, this or that. It, it, it rounds it out to be a, uh, a fuller picture of the cost, benefits of, you know, whatever it is we're looking to do or change. Yeah.

Like it, no, I like, I like that one too because, you know, it, I think it acknowledges like, Some of the reasons why we do do things right? Mm-hmm. , like, so if it's like, okay not drinking the pros and cons, like it'd be kind of hard for someone to write down the cons of not drinking. Like if they're in a place of like still contemplation, you know, like, oh, there are no cons of, you know, I think I'm explaining this correctly regardless.

I think yeah, you're right, it, it helps you map it out even more and get even more information and also helps you acknowledge like some of those things that maybe. You don't wanna acknowledge in the pros and cons list when it's so simple just to go back and forth it, it really helps round out the picture.

Yeah. I guess is what I'm trying to say there. Yeah. I think that's so right. And you may be surprised in sometimes where you put a pro or a con , yeah. Yes. Yeah. Mm-hmm. , and you're like, oh, oh, you know, and again, that, that. That curiosity of mm-hmm. of why we do what we do, um, is always gonna be there for me. I think, I think that's always there for, for most of us, um, especially if you're listening to this and thinking about change in any way.

Um, and so thinking about this idea of how to be successful in our endeavor, whatever that may be. And so if it's, um, taking sober January, it's like, What would, what would I need to, to not drink for a month? And that would be, you know, um, thinking about supports, who in your world, um, will support you in this?

Um, what, you know, the remembering that, um, community piece, if, if you're a social person and, and your group is a, is a group that gets together to drink, thinking about. What it is you want to do when that happens, to feel comfortable going still and not drinking. Some people may absolutely others that would be a real trigger or a setup for them, and that's that map piece.

What, what would I really not, what do I want to happen while I want to go with my friends and just not drink and have the same good time? Well, that may be unrealistic at the beginning or in, in. First try of, of going out sober. Um, so being realistic, um, having some supports. Coping ahead is another great D B T thing.

Thinking about, geez, what am I gonna do on Friday night when everyone's out? How do I, how do I set myself up for success and not to say, Forget it. I'm going out because I'm bored. Mm-hmm. , or, or whatever good reason there, there are gonna be good reasons that you, that you don't choose to do this, but if you're looking to be successful, really problem solving what is likely to come up for me.

Um, and then, and then planning to address that. Uh, I think it's, um, it's a great, a great tool for me was. Snacks. I think that's a big thing with, with a lot of folks that are changing, um, something, uh, substance or, and alcohol. Mm-hmm. , you know, having snacks, um, having things to drink. Um, I consume a whole bunch of carbonated cans of water, you know, I think a lot of people do.

But that was a great substitute for me, um, for, for alcohol. And also they make some really good NA beers these days of all the times to be sober. Um, it used to be, you know, uh, three or four different really terrible, um, alternatives. Mm-hmm. and now they're just making a variety of things, including, I tried the other day, non-alcoholic Guinness.

Oh wow. Fabulous. Interesting. Yeah, surprisingly good. Um, and so is it gonna be the same? No, um, because it's a different thing. Um, Can, can that help? Especially if we're talking about just taking a break mm-hmm. , um, can that help folks feel like they're not missing out? Can it help with something to do with your hands?

Um, I took, well, and, and even non-alcoholic beers, there's a whole bunch not, you know, besides that, there's a whole wave of mocktails out there, right? Yes. And all sorts of like, ones that also have like vitamins and minerals and like really kind of trying to turn. You know, the alcohol industry on its nose and say like, there are wonderful things you can do that you can replace and enjoy and have different flavor profiles and help your health and wellbeing.

And I just think, you know, that didn't even, that didn't exist even 10 years ago for people. Right. Even five years ago. It's, it's really becoming its own thing. So, you know, as we talk about the holidays too, since this episode is technically about the holidays, I think that those are really good options to bring along as well, like pre-plan.

Yeah. And, and it can be really helpful. Yeah. Um, they're even making a non-alcoholic wine too. Um, oh, yeah. And kombuchas and a thing that can be really nice to have as a treat to, if you, if you're into that and, and you mentioned health things that are healthy. So, um, again, especially like you said at the holidays,

If you're someone that really pictures having this warm drink of sorts, you know, make that, that warm drink mm-hmm. and just not put the alcohol in it. Mm-hmm. , um mm-hmm. , treat yourself in a way, you know, cuz I think sometimes we, we say, I deserve this. Mm-hmm. . Right. And, and again, that, that piece that. We're inundated with is, you know, you, you deserve this, you've worked hard or whatever.

And then if you're saying, well, geez, this is kind of problematic for me, that becomes, again, that war or that battle we talked about internally, do I deserve this or am I undeserving? Mm-hmm. And no one wants to feel undeserving. Yeah. And so how do we say I actually deserve, To not drink. Mm-hmm. , I, I care enough about my health, my wellbeing, my, the friends and family.

All of the things make that list of, of why we're doing this is another good reason. I like that too, cuz you can really like flesh that out. Right. Of like, you know, I've, I've read one of the strategies too, especially around the holidays. If you have these events you're going to, and you know, imagine yourself going and like not drinking, right?

Imagine what it would like. Really use that neuroscience. To our benefit, right? You know, if we can imagine ourselves doing something, we, you know, if you can, if you can see someone swing a baseball bat on a video, you can, you can mimic it so much more. If you can imagine yourself swinging that bat, you're gonna do a lot better than you know, never having thought of it.

So think about it. Imagine really like create. That vision in your mind before you head out? Like what is it going to be like when I get there? What will I reach for? How long do I wanna stay? Who do I wanna talk to? What do I want to eat when I'm there? What time do I wanna go home? And you know, my favorite part.

When I'm kind of in, in these pauses is to imagine how amazing I will feel the next day. Mm-hmm. like both in like pride and you know, knowing you chose something that really aligned with like your values or how you wanna take care of yourself, but also physically how well you will sleep, how refreshed you will feel waking up, you know that your life continues on past this, you know, office party or this family get together in the holidays.

Right. Your life continues. And, and really let yourself like, feel that in all of your senses. I, I really appreciate you saying that. Yeah. The visualization and that building up the other side that says, what do I get from this? What is, what is positive in this way? Um, I used to really enjoy being the driver for people.

Mm-hmm. still do. Um, but that's a benefit. No, nobody here is going to drive on unsafely tonight, cuz I'm happy to give them a lift like that could be on that pro side. Um, you know, and, and, That the support from, from someone out, from a peer, a loved one can be, uh, very helpful too in, in that not wanting to feel alone.

Mm-hmm. in, in your choices, um, and having an answer for why. Is a good prep. Um, why you're not drinking, because like we I said earlier is, you know, people, oh, what's wrong? You know, what happened? Do you have a problem? Um, and, and so I think that's another wonderful thing about, um, kind of a, a positive cultural experience is that sober January is a lot more accepted Yeah.

Than it was before. Taking time off from, from alcohol. It also depends. Again, back to our identity, age, demographic group, um, identity, um, how, and, and really fitting your plan to meet you and your, your needs and also your, your group, um, to. And how to, how to do that, thinking about how to be successful in this, that visualization.

I, I really, really like that. Mm-hmm. . Yeah. Thank you. And you know, as we kind of close, um, even thinking about where do you wanna even go, right? So thinking about things like, all right, who am I? Like you're right, that identity of like, how do I wanna spend my time? This is a time maybe to be, you know, Be gentle with yourself and protect yourself with those stronger boundaries and with, you know, really deciding where do I wanna be?

You know, I don't have to go. And, and taking that time to be protective over, you know, this, you know, fledgling, you know, sobriety perhaps, or even just, you know, offering that compassion that the holidays are hard for everyone. So maybe this is year 10 in recovery. That there's no shame, that maybe it's just as hard as it was on year one and two, because this is a difficult time and acknowledging that, you know, I, I can choose to stay home, or I could make alternative plans, or I can be with my chosen family or my chosen friends who support my sobriety.

Yeah, 100%. And I, I think I may even have looked overlooked a piece of, for a lot of people, holidays are really triggering, uh, yeah. Past traumas and difficult things. So, so being certainly not neglecting you, what, what you would need to for support to get through the holiday and just then saying, I'm just not gonna drink and.

And exposing ourselves vulnerably to something that is not self-protective. Mm-hmm. . So really making those plans to, um, Not thrust yourself into a, a position or a place or a situation that not only is triggering but is, uh, to drink, but is is more, maybe more deeply triggering something else. Certainly don't want people to just say, well, I'm not gonna drink and, and go and, and, and not be protective of ourselves or set boundaries.

Um, so I, I really just wanted to mention that last piece. Yeah. Thank you. Thank you. And I appreciate you being here so much. This has been a really wonderful conversation. I. I thank you for your vulnerability in sharing parts, you know, of your recovery story, and I, I personally think that, I mean, I'm so grateful that there are clinicians who are substance use counselors who also have their own personal experience in this area because recovery is at.

One of the most challenging things maybe, that someone will do in their lifetime. And to be able to have your guide be someone who's been there. I mean, that, that's priceless, right? So I appreciate you coming on, you know, onto the podcast and kind of putting it all out there for everybody and, and, and taking it beyond your therapy walls and the efforts of, of helping others.

So thank. Yeah, I was great to have this conversation. I really appreciate how you make this space and, um, invite us to be part of it and, and share with clients and, and beyond. Um, it's the embodiment of health and wellness that, that, um, insight really is dedicated to. So thank you for your role in that.

Yeah. Thank you. And I appreciate that. Thank you. Mm-hmm. . And I'll let our listeners know too, that we did mention and we threw out a lot of names and books and resources. We'll definitely post that in the show notes along with other recovery programs that we mentioned, and even any other resources that Jeff knows about, we'll create a list.

And so you can check that out, um, in the show notes. Thank you. Thanks. 

Thank you again for joining us on Insight Mind Body Talk, a body-centered mental health podcast. We hope today's episode was empowering and supported you in strengthening your mind-body connection We're your hosts Jeanne and Jess. Please join us again as we continue to explore integrative approaches to wellbeing. Until then, take care.