“He who knows others is learned. He who knows himself is wise.” Lao Tzu
The Enneagram is a system designed to help you better understand yourself and others. This personality test can help identify your own, and other people’s, patterns of thinking, emotional responses, and underlying motivations. Expert Julia Smith, licensed marriage and family therapist and certified yoga therapist, explains the 9 Enneagram types and what each type does during stress or healthy growth. The Enneagram can lead to better relationships, improved work dynamics, and increased self-awareness!
Produced by Jessica Warpula Schultz
Music by Jason A. Schultz
[00:00:00] Welcome to Insight Mind Body Talk, a body-based mental health podcast. We're your hosts, Jessica Warpula Schultz and Jeanne Kolker. Whether you've tried everything to feel better and something is still missing or you've already discovered the wisdom of the body. This podcast will encourage and support you in healing old wounds, strengthening relationships, and developing your inner potential- all by accessing the mind body connection.
Please know, while we're excited to share and grow together. This podcast is not intended to be a substitute for mental health treatment. It doesn't replace the one-on-one relationship you have with a qualified healthcare professional and is not considered psychotherapy.
Thanks Jess. And thank you for listening. Now, let's begin a conversation about what happens when we take an integrative approach to improving our wellbeing. welcome to insight. Mind, body talk. My name is Jess. I'm a licensed [00:01:00] marriage and family therapist.
Trauma-informed personal trainer. And your host today's episode is titled “The Enneagram”. My guest is Julia Smith. Julia is a licensed marriage and family therapist and a certified yoga therapist. She's the owner of BeGrounded, get it? BeGrounded. I love it. I love it. BeGrounded Mental Health and Yoga Therapy, specializing in treating people, struggling with stress, anxiety, depression, PTSD, and other mental health issues.
She is passionate about utilizing movement. Many of us are on this podcast. That's awesome. Utilizing movement and yoga practices with her clients and is working on her level one certification and EMDR. A seven on the Enneagram. Julia likes to try new things. Hasn't been afraid to take risks and tries to enjoy life to [00:02:00] the fullest.
This is true. This I know of other pursuits include tending and befriending her nervous system. I'm all for that hiking with her husband, Kurt and rescue dog, Nana and making award winning jams and jellies for the Wisconsin state fair. And of course rooting for Aaron Rogers and the green bay Packers.
Just to name a few things above the wonderful things you enjoy. So, Julia welcome. I'm so happy to have you here. Thank you, Jess. I'm so excited to be here. You're going to probably hear me say that a lot cause of, of my seven newness comes on. How often we start talking about the Enneagram. Um, and yeah, I'm just excited to be here and share with your listeners a little bit more about what I think is an amazing, um, just an amazing tool for self-growth for, um, personal transformation.
That's really accessible. And I think really, um, one of the reasons I really like the Enneagram is it's [00:03:00] grounded. I think in a lot more, let's say positive language. It's not so pejorative. It doesn't really look at us as having faults. It's it looks at us as more as like when we are in stress and when we move to health and that all of us, regardless of our type is dealing with.
With challenges and that green, I agree. We, uh, I was introduced to any grant, which is a personality assessment, much like, well, you know, kind of like Myers-Briggs or the stress Strength Finder, um, in grad school, you know, MFTs at Edgewood here in Madison really liked to, you know, focus and learn how to use the Enneagram with our clients and with ourselves.
Because, I mean, I think it's really wonderful. It's such a great tool to show us, you know, not that there's a set type and we'll get into that, but we do have types, even though we have different parts of ourselves, but this main way of like navigating the world of being in relationships explains kind of like [00:04:00] different levels of motivation where our motivation comes from.
And so that being said, I'm starting to already get into it. What is your Enneagram? So, and I liked, you just mentioned the Myers-Briggs and I think I, I liked the Myers-Briggs, but I don't know that it gets too. And some of the other personality profiles gets to what is the underlying motivation for our behaviors.
Right. And so I know I'm getting ahead of myself, but it's part of, part of what it is is that, um, it's a per it's essentially a personality test, but there's nine distinct types. And so with each number on the Enneagram denoting one type. And so that's the first thing I like about it. I mean, it's one through nine.
Now that doesn't mean one being first is better than say the nine. It's just like, I love that it's very neutral web by using numbers. So we use numbers. Um, it's also common to find a little bit of yourself in all nine of the types. So when you [00:05:00] take, if you did decide to take the paid test, you get your primary type, but it also gives you the whole list.
And so even, you know, if your last number is one, that means you still have it. Um, but you have one, maybe two, I sometimes run into clients that have two types really close that really stand out to be the closest to yourself. And that is your basic tight. And so we emerge from childhood with one of these nine types dominating our personnel.
So interesting because when you take, so you can take the short, free tests and I'm not telling anyone to like, basically go pay, you can also read about them and maybe, you know, use yourself to decide. And, uh, but the, the bigger tests that you pay, like 10 bucks for something like that, it's like a hundred questions, but what's so interesting.
Is it asks you to think about how you responded, like before the age of 18, like as a child and young adult, your responses, maybe not, you know, post 10 years of [00:06:00] therapy and good therapy work, right. It's like the root, like what motivates you? And I know throughout my life, I've tried to take it several times and I'll get into it a little bit later maybe, but, uh, because I didn't really want to be the number I was, cause I didn't think it was as shiny and fun as a number.
And, uh, but it's, uh, it's me through and through, you know, if you really know that any of them. Yeah. Yes. You know, so it's so cool. It's just a really cool way to get to know a little bit more about yourself. It is. And I think it goes to that idea of, um, you know, we, there are a couple of types of the Enneagram and I think we'll do descriptions of each one and we get to it.
But it's always interesting when I introduce this to either my clients or to students at Edgewood. And there's a couple who are like, like really skeptical or who are really like, you can't, you know, you can't put me in a box, you can't. Yeah. You know, and it's like, [00:07:00] oh, now you're revealing your type. I'm so sorry.
You're kind of like indicating who you are. And I remember taking, and I've retested because I've, so I'm a seven with a six swing and the six is the loyalist or the questioner. And so our six types can sometimes be skeptical of things. And so there's, there's times over the past 15 years where I'm like, am I re.
And am I a seven? So retake the test and it all, it's always come back as a strong seven. And I think the first time I took it, I really took to heart that like answered this. Like you were 21 while I was a very unhealthy, very scattered seven. Yeah. It took me five and a half years to get through college.
It took me almost three and a half to decide on my major because I was like, I think I want to do this. Take a few classes I want to do. No, I don't like that. Right. And that idea that the seven has to try things to figure it out. Whereas other types might be like, I knew from the time I was 10, I was [00:08:00] going to be a doctor it's like that.
You know where sometimes I think, and I think it's good to be open-minded and to be critical of things. But it's interesting when we come back to sort of the foundation of who we are, we kind of land in our title. Yeah. You know, I'm, so I'm a one I'm former title over former, I don't know, but you know, the basic and you'll get, you know, I keep, we keep saying we'll get into the types, which I'm super open.
We're farmers, number ones. They're very ethical. So you look back at, you know, my career choices have always been. Nonprofit work or social justice work or trying to create change. And you look at the kind of like way I navigate as a therapist or a person I really believe in like, truly following your ethics and the ethical code.
Like there's this invisible police that are watching me at all times, but it's like very deep within me. I will always try to be good. And [00:09:00] when I feel like I'm being bad, I mean, I'm very uncomfortable. So talk about stellar employee, right? Watch me to make sure I'm doing all, all of the stuff I'm supposed to be doing because I don't do it for you.
I do it for me because I feel very unsettled when I'm not being a good partner or good, you know, anything it's so it's, it's totally me. I've been motivated my entire life of being like a good, a good medicine. Good person. Right. And for me, it's always, it's been like fun. Isn't important, but I like variety.
I get bored easily. And so I'm, and I, I just have this like zest kind of for living, which is so much the enthusiastic, right? Like they it's like, that's me for sure. You know? And so it's about as we talk more about it and I'm going to talk a little bit more about some points about each [00:10:00] type, just kind of as an overview, this idea of knowing yourself to know when you start heading into stress.
And so he is taking on too much saying yes to too many things. Um, and then I start to feel, I actually take on the challenging types of the one. So I become very perfectionistic, which is very counter. Yeah. And perfectionistic, I become a little bit of a martyr. Sometimes I can become judgmental, critical types of one.
And for you, Jess, like as a one, um, my, what I would encourage you to do is like going to, so you want to go to the seven, which is like having fun for fun sake. Yes. Play what is play? I mean, that's actually like a, like a, a personal growth, like goal of mine is to, you know, be more playful to, you know, find, play in my life [00:11:00] too.
I mean, that's why we have this podcast and a lot of ways like mental health awareness is so important, but if you've been listening, I like to joke around. I like to have fun for you. And it's so it's so good for me to do more things like this to be more full, the play felt like, yeah, that's, that's almost a prescription is to have from, for the ones I work with.
Uh, you're going to go do something fun just for fun sake, not to learn. It's like, well, why are we know you're just doing it for fun. And sometimes it can be really hard to access that for a one. It can be hard work. I'm sure if you're asking my partner, he probably be like, you know, we don't have to be so serious all the time.
You know, you can just laugh at this stupid movie and not be like, Hmm. I'm not so sure. Like, I mean, I'm not sure about the writing or I'm not sure about like how they said that if that was, you know, like it's always like this breakdown of like, is that really okay. And like, just to lighten up and laugh at like, you know, ACE Ventura, like just [00:12:00] do it, just do it, just do it.
Um, let's get into the types. So we started talking about real quick, so we can explain that a type in stress kind of moves to a different number in a type when they're very healthy or in a healthy way, moves to another. So like, W moves to a seven for play in health and move to a four and stressful.
We'll come back to that. So let's get into the types. So, so what we'll talk about here is the overview. So people don't change from one type to another. That's an important, so it's like, um, you, you stay your type, but we have nine, they've built out nine levels of, um, basically of health. It's like their stages of development.
And every, every day, depending on how much stress is in our life, we are moving from unhealthy average to healthy levels, moving up and down and those types. So what they talk about, the descriptions of each type they're [00:13:00] universal, they apply equally to all humans and our gender fluid. So no type is inherently masculine or feminine, which I think is really great about, um, about the Enneagram and to your point that you just made, not everything in your basic type will apply to you all the time, because we are fluctuating among health.
Average and unhealthy traits that make up our type. And we talked about the numbers. We talked about. Numerical ranking is not significant. No number is better than another. And so the key here is that no type is inherently worse than any other. Um, and we talked a little bit about, um, like Glennon, Doyle being a four and her really not wanting to be a four, but for her and for you.
And for me, we just want to become our ideal, best self, not imitate aspects of another type. And that's, that's the key. And each type does move towards another [00:14:00] type in health and another type in stress. And so when we, when we review each one, I'll talk about, you know, this is where the one goes in that way.
Go ahead. I was going to say the Glennon Doyle references right before we started recording, we both happened to, um, more recently listened to an episode of Glennon Doyle podcast. The name is I'm blanking now on I do hard things. Yes. I love that we can do hard things. And, um, she hadn't any ground with, uh, any Graham Ashton, this person who is, you know, online and has based her career on it.
And so they were talking about how even like Glennon didn't really want to be a four. Um, her partner, Abby, uh, had been taking any gram her whole life and really wanted to be like the achievers. So she was answering the questions as if what would the achiever path. And so after retiring from her amazing career as an.
She really, she [00:15:00] said it was like five or six years ago. And so now she kind of took it again from just a place of, okay, what do I would, I truly say, like, not who do I want to be? Like, who am I? And, and she went from like a seven or something to Excel. So it's just a side note, cool episode to listen to. Um, if you're interested about the Enneagram even more after this, but yeah.
So the types, so the types one through nine, so we'll will are going to do is we'll start actually with, um, if it's okay with everyone, I want to talk about the triads. So we're going to start with the two, um, because the two, three and four are in the heart triad. And so, and maybe we, you could put this in the show notes.
I can send you the Enneagram is built on a circle with the types moving around a circle. And so the helper is the. The three is the achiever and the four is the artist. Okay. So we're in our heart [00:16:00] triad, the underlying emotion that those three types of primarily dealing with is shame. And it's the feeling center of the Enneagram.
And so here's, what's interesting starting with the two, the two is the helper they're known as the connector, um, and they want to avoid, so this is, this is the thing. There are certain things we want to avoid in each of our types. The two wants to avoid their own needs and be in service of others. So you see a lot of twos as therapists, as nurses, um, as just they're called the helper.
And these are generally people who have a hard time with boundaries because they have a hard time saying. And the childhood sort of wounding that happens with the two is this idea that, um, in order for me to be loved, I need to be helpful. [00:17:00] I saw like a little like meme of a therapist meme, or if it's a T a two really well, like have a, to name three things they like about themselves, but they can't be things that are in service of others.
It's like the mind blown the mind cannot think I have clients who are like, I have to get back to you on this. Just think of that right now. Cause I'm always in service of others and they do out of love, but they aren't always in service of others. They always are. And it is, it's asking the work of the two is it's for me to it's the same thing.
It's what do you want? What do you need and how do you feel about that? Twos are exceptional and this way they make incredible therapists. They are so good at dialing into other people's feelings. They often are the ones who are like, you know, if you just let me fix this for you, it'll be fine. They want to fix, um, [00:18:00] you know, and then what can happen where twos can struggle is because sometimes in unhealthier levels, they end up trying to quote, take over someone else's life.
And then they don't understand when that help isn't like fully wanted and people are resentful or get angry. And they're like, I don't understand why they were angry at me because I just wanted to help them. But did they really ask for the help? Okay. And that can get tricky in couples dynamics. Yes.
Especially if you're working with two helpers, it's like, oh my gosh, Um, and so then the other big piece I see with a two, when I'm working with the two is the part of how much guilt they feel when they start setting boundaries. Because there is a deep fear that people won't love them anymore, or that they don't know like, well, who am I, if I am not a helper and will people love me for me?
And so twos as they move in health, they go to the [00:19:00] four. Now the four is the individualist and the four is all about their own feelings. So this makes a lot of sense. Twos become more in touch with their own feelings, their own wants their needs, and then can become more mindful and purposeful about when I am choosing to help people.
When am I doing that? And a big thing for too, I really encourage is finding some sort of creative outlet, which again can be very difficult to do is working on that too. Um, and then when twos are pushed to the limit too far, going really in distress, um, they take on the qualities of the eight, the challenger.
And so generally warm, fuzzy, loving twos can become very angry and very abrupt and can explode an anger like an eight, which can then be very off-putting to the love of. Sure. Cause they didn't know it was happening because the twos are always in service. And then at a certain point, maybe [00:20:00] that's not reciprocated or they start to start burning out.
Exactly. And then, because they're not taking care of their own needs and pursuing their needs. And then suddenly there's like resentment or anger outbursts makes sense. Yes. It makes sense. Or like a, and this is where you, I don't want to get too deep into the, like the, the, I say the worst aspects, but there can be very much this.
Like they don't understand how much I do for them. It can there's can be this in very unhealthy ways of this very, this martyr kind of martyrdom that can take place. And so then that's where a two can become maybe a little manipulative or, um, there can be a lot of guilt tripping, right. That can happen at a very unhealthy level.
Um, and then the opposite is when they come in to help. This like people are drawn to them like bees to honey. I love that description in the Enneagram of the wisdom of the Enneagram. This sense of people are drawn and they are [00:21:00] drawn to them and tos will literally give their shirts off their backs. But when they, when they disperse it everywhere, then they have nothing left in the tank for themselves.
Um, so part of that makes sense why it's part of the heart triad heart. So what about three? The three? Yeah. So, no, this is interesting with the three, the three is the achiever. And so even though the three is in the heart triad, because their goal is around being successful, they actually are like feeling.
What are they good for? I feel so the three is very adaptable, excelling, driven, um, and they're image conscious. And so their fear is of being worthless. Yes. And so their childhood perhaps was spent with, with getting a lot of praise for doing well at things for performing. Um, they want to be a first. [00:22:00] Um, it says here they're like their message.
You are good. Are okay. As long as you are successful and others think well of you so the person who says, who comes maybe that therapy and it's like, well, my parents never said anything disparaging to me. My parents never put me down. Okay. So what did you hear from your parents? Well, lots of praise around, like how well I was doing in school.
What a good kid. I was, how, what a good helper I was. Yes. You know how even, you know, sometimes intergenerational body image like passed down. Like you look very good. You're very appealing to everybody else. And, and so when something changes in any of those, I'm sure it can be really disregulating for three, for a three three's really?
I think, um, Oprah Winfrey and Tom cruise. Our threes. You know, if you think of like successful people and in health, they bring people with them. Like there are these amazing leaders who rally the troops and [00:23:00] there's, you know, they accept challenges. Um, they're optimistic. They can motivate people. Um, but they could, they're known.
So then in, in stress, they can have a hard time. Um, they can compare themselves to others. They can become workaholics. So they have a really, these are the folks that when they go on vacation are checking their emails. Okay. You know, to the detriment of their family life, um, they, they're very, um, they feel like they always have to be on, they can have a hard time putting up with it with inefficiency.
And when I say that is that can be real inefficiency or perceived interface inefficiency. Right. The idea of like, they're not doing. Yeah. So like, you know, Hong Kong and Doyle's podcasts, they did, they gave a great example of a three where they said maybe the three is always like on top of the house, on top of the household chores.
Maybe be like, I imagine a three who's like we [00:24:00] work, then we relax. And maybe you're partnered with someone who's prioritizing rest after their Workday. And it's like, oh, I can get the dishes in a couple hours. I can that Adele later I'm prioritizing right. This, the three is like, no, that's not what we do.
This is what we do. This is how we do it. We're efficient. We get it done focused. We work. And so they can't like sometimes understand why other people are moving at a slower pace or even have like different goals. Exactly. Certain ways of doing something. Yeah. It's kind of mind blowing and, and then it's about feelings.
So if you ask a three, like how do you feel about that? They're like, well, I think, and I'm like, no, We're going to talk about a feeling and that can be hard for them either. So this is some of that, like, almost like the shadow is that they're in their feelings center, but that's like been shut off for them.
Um, I think the other thing, if you're working with threes and session, and this has come up, [00:25:00] um, is they, you know, it's like, well, what are we going to do in therapy? I need to get these goals. You know, and so there might be more where you're going to maybe assign home. Like they might really like hallmark.
They might really want to feel like, what are my goals and what are we doing specifically? And so if you're a therapist that tends to maybe do more, um, and like feeling work or be more exploratory that can maybe would frustrate a three, you might want to be a little more direct in working with threes, which is interesting because one of we're going to go off topic for a second, but if I'm a seven, this is where our type, how do our types interact with other types?
Right. And so for me, then when I'm working with the three, I'm like, Julia, you got to focus on your treatment plan. You got to focus on because they want to see progress. I've had clients say like, I want you to give me skills and goals. And, uh, the [00:26:00] person that I had before. Did not do that. So it was not a good use of my time, you know, and you know, if my time was not going to use my time and so I can appreciate that.
So there's always that balance, right? Of like the feelings, the sensory motor aspect of it, the body, and then, you know, also meeting the client where they're at and what they need exactly. The three. So that's the three. Let's move to the last of the heart center. So the fours, I didn't say, let me just say this about the three quick, I forgot to say.
So three's in stress, go to nine, the peacemaker and actually can become very empathetic and a little numbed out. Okay. And then when they go to the six, so that's the, um, the six is the skeptic or the questioner. They end up becoming more, um, practical. They, um, kind of can see the forest for the trees. Um, they have a little more like work-life [00:27:00] balance that then can occur.
Okay. When they're moving towards like that health versus the stress stress, right? Yep. Okay. So now the, for the, for the romantic and the quote I have here is no one understands me. So the four in the four moves to the two. In stress and actually to the one, the perfectionist in growth. What I like to say about fours is this is again, and we don't, I don't like to get stereotypical here, but fours tend to be the artists of the Enneagram.
Okay. Um, if you had to think of a type you could think of sort of the tortured artists, the sense of my world is dark and deep. Nobody understands me. I am unique. I am special. Um, things have to be beauty. You know, I can't do anything until everything is sort of in [00:28:00] order and pretty and looks good. Fours have, can have a wonderful inner experience, um, of daydreams and plans and things, um, often can get so caught up in those things that, that there can be, create a great longing for that life sort of in the present day.
And so when I'm working with fours, I'm working on, on really uninteresting the logic part of their brain to come online, to help them understand that their feelings are not facts. Uh, yeah, because you want to validate feelings, but you don't want feelings to run you particularly negative feelings. And so things like mindfulness and working on longing, um, for as long for things.
Yeah. That's such a great way of describing it. Like I am, I can conceptualize kind of like what you're saying here. [00:29:00] So, so fours, yeah. Feelings. Aren't fact that's so important. That's so important because they're so powerful. And I love the idea of longing, you know, I've never even thought to like, view something that way of addressing the longing of like the world that someone imagines or hopes for, but is not there present moment.
Cause we all want to have hope. Right. But what happens when. Our current situation is not living into that suffering that that can cause exactly, truly. Um, so their fear in life, their fear is of having no identity or no personal significance. And so their desire is to find themselves and their significance, but they want to create this identity out of their inner experience.
So at their best, they are inspired and highly creative and they are able to renew themselves and they can transform their experiences, [00:30:00] but they see themselves. Fundamentally as different from others. And so we work with this idea of so being so in their own feelings, as much as twos are in other people's feelings.
Yes. Yes. And I'm sure that translates to other areas, not just their artistic endeavors, perhaps. Right. That translates to like, no one understands me in real, in my, you know, relationship maybe in my place of employment, maybe in my friendship circle or, you know, probably, especially in my family of origin even.
Right. Exactly. And I'm working with a group I do supervision with, and it's interesting to sort of see, we see a lot of twos in the helping. Choose sixes. Nines tend to be kind of what I see. And then, but there always seems to be one for who, who feels so validated when we do this work and says, guys, this is why it's [00:31:00] important that all of the, you know, all of the Crans are in order from yellow to black.
This is why this hallway really needs to be an eggshell blue and not teal. Like they. You know, there's this sense of, I want the world around me to be beautiful. Right. And like me as a seven, I'm like, I literally don't care what color the room is. This is why it's so good. And why these types are also wonderful.
This is probably why, you know, I wonder how many art therapists or fours, you know? Yeah. So interesting. Okay. So even those, we could have an episode on every type. And so I don't want to rush through, I want to stay with everybody, but I know, but we'll move on. Yes, here's so we love you for it. So this is the one thing I'd say, if you're a four and you're listening, this is the one way you could work on yourself too, is just try to not avoid putting things [00:32:00] off until you're in the just right mood.
So you still want to try, you know, it's like, even though I don't have this thing, I'm still gonna try to have a productive. Uh, productive. I'm putting in air quotes because that's a whole net. We could podcast about productivity some other time. Yeah. But, oh my gosh. That's so wise, even though it's not perfect because oh yeah.
Did you see the ones kind of go towards the F w yes. I'm a, I'm a four under stress. I identify with this, like, where's my recipe for perfection before I can like, call forth the awesome this that I can do. And I, over the years worked really hard to be like, I can record this podcast with traffic. I can journal, even though my day didn't start perfectly.
I can still move my body, even if I'm tired, like waiting for the perfection before the act. Right. I identify with. [00:33:00] Yep. Okay. So moving through to the next cause those were all heart. So, so now we're center or the next triad is the five, the five, six and seven. And so that is the thinking triad and the underlying emotion they're dealing with is fear.
And so now this group, again, everybody can experience symptoms of depression. Everybody can deal with symptoms of anxiety. However, this tends to be the group that is in their head a little bit more. And I would say the five of all of the types, which we're going to talk about next, the investigator is in their head the most.
So the five is the, they call them the investigator. Um, they, it says here, I don't need much, but I need my space. So now in it's so interesting that the foreign, the fiber next to each other were fours are very concerned about their feelings. Fives are very concerned about facts. So they, their fear is of being useless, helpless, or incapable.
[00:34:00] And so their desire then, and their motivation is to be capable and competent. And so the idea here is that you are only good if you've mastered something. So these are now consumers of knowledge and information. So I, this might be a person. Um, again, I don't like to be stereotypical, but I tend to see people who are, you know, web web, uh, web developers, engineers, people who are interested in consuming knowledge, they might have facts about, um, the animal kingdom and know a lot of things about bears.
I'm thinking of Dwight Schrute, right? Maybe, maybe it would be a five. Maybe I don't even do that. Um, but they they're always searching. They're always asking questions and they're delving into things in depth and they do not accept received opinions. Um, so they always are testing the true. Um, for [00:35:00] themselves.
And so they integrate into the challenger or the type eight, which means that instead of having it in their heads, because these are the folks that will tend to be more introverted and isolate and kind of keep them themselves. And so fives moving into health is like taking their ideas out into the world and speaking and sharing.
And, and going to the aid and then they actually go to the seven under stress. Okay. So, um, a couple of things about, what's hard about being a five is that they can feel bad when they act offensively or act like a know at all. And so these, um, what a double conundrum to be an investigator. I don't know if double conundrums, what a conundrum, like a super big conundrum that you love to investigate and know things.
And yet you don't want to feel like I know it all exactly. Oh, [00:36:00] and how do you place it is and how do you share things when you're like, also worried about that? You'll look like a, know it all. And then like they have pressure. They, um, often too, like they don't like loud parties or being in groups of people.
So they feel pressured. What can be hard about being a five is when they are pressured to be with people. They don't want to be. Um, and why thinking of someone so specifically right now, and I'm going to tell this person about this podcast, because they will be like, oh, I am a five and they will love to learn about the five and yet, you know, it will also be really helpful to like, learn more, learn more about the Enneagram and, and, and grow through this.
But the idea of, so when you first said it, what happens for five when they don't feel productive, they're not working on something, accomplishing a goal, not, you know, [00:37:00] making, um, like progress in something. Sure. Let's, let's see. They will, they can. So it's interesting. Cause I don't know that they often think of that necessarily.
Maybe. Yeah. Yeah. But it is that they can become scattered and distracted and they can start things without finishing them. So it's the sort of anxiety piece of like, of like, well, if I know all there is to know about bears and this is like my pocket of knowledge that I have, what can happen. So let's just say, someone would say I'm picking on bears.
Like someone would be talking and say, I know something about bears that you don't know. And they share that then a five can feel like, like, then there's some fear there of like, oh my gosh, what if I don't know everything and they can shut down and then become more secretive and then have a hard time saying things and then can become almost, they can become very angry, but in a way where then they Stonewall shut down and [00:38:00] withdraw.
And yes. And so I, I used to work with someone and I could just see like, like when his five minutes come out when it was like, and like not being able to solve a problem instead of like going to. Ask someone for help. They sort of sit down and like, I need to figure this out right now. And if I, you know, it becomes very awkward, if that makes sense.
And so they're able to then defend themselves more effectively if they can put themselves out in the world. One of the things with the five that I want to mention too, is they're very disconnected from their bodies. And so often I can see it's really important for fives who a lot of them. And I'm thinking about this person, you know, like it's really like working on getting out of their head and getting them grounded and doing exercise.
I'm not sure if this person is a five, because again, I don't know, but I'm just getting energy around it. And [00:39:00] movement is wonderful. Yes, and they love it and it really does help like create growth and health. Thank you for sure. For sure. It says here that fives can be extremely intense and so high, strong, they can find it difficult to relax and unwind.
So cool. I love this stuff so much fun. Yeah. Again, I don't know if this person's a five or not. I'm feeling some five vibes, but still, this is such a cool way to like, get, get yourself into like a new frame of thinking about things and learning information about yourself and then experimenting to see if this applies or does this help me feel this way?
And, uh, is that me when I'm under stress? What would I need a little bit? Because I think sometimes we all want a little bit of information on like, what should I do when I'm stressed? What are the signs that I'm doing well? Right. So, I mean, I think, you know, again, this isn't a black and white and sentence stone, but what a cool.[00:40:00]
What a cool tool. And for the five, two is like the idea of, um, like not being afraid of conflict and stating their opinions and standing up for themselves as opposed to sort of like I'll just retreat back. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. The lives. So how about, how about our sixes? So now our six says R six is, this is so interesting.
Um, so the six is the loyalist or the skeptic. Now this is, what's fascinating about the six is that the it's the only tight that can present. There's almost a duality between them. So the loyalist is going to be like, one of your best friends is probably a six sixes. We'll go down with the ship, but they will stay in relationships far longer than other people.
Well, and so they're driven by an anxiety of, they do not want to be without support and [00:41:00] guidance. Oh, interesting. They want security and support. And so what'll happen is they end up having this quality around testing others to see, are you really my friend or we'll test that? Literally test our question.
Um, doctrines. So this is where we even talked a lot about like famous people, but I do want to point out the six, um, as, so J Edgar Hoover, who was the head of the FBI. And then Malcolm ax. So these are where I look at them as being loyal and skeptic. So like Malcolm X, challenging the government, these like institutions and being a questioner of society of rules, or like, uh, like I'm used Marilyn Monroe in this, or following the rules.
So your six is, might be very bound by following rules or [00:42:00] they may challenge all the rules. So interesting. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's. It sounds like, like a Gemini in a way, right? Like to bring in astrology, but that's where my brain goes is how one person can, you know, have such, you know, contradicting yet at the same time, it's the same type.
Uh, six that's a little more unhealthy tends to, so sixes are also very realistic. They can, sometimes the glass is kind of half empty. They can have a take on the world of like a little bit of pessimism, right. Things aren't going to, and they do a lot of worry. They do a lot of, um, worst case scenarios. So if they're experiencing something coming up, they're going to work through every worst case scenario, that's going to happen to reduce anxiety and make them feel more prepared.
Except that, that doesn't happen. Like the worst case scenario in their head is always, wouldn't it be way worse than, you know, it will [00:43:00] did that happen. Yeah. I was really worried that they were going to yell at me, so I , and then I had to talk to them about it. And did they yell at you now? And so when I work with sixes and I see a lot of sixes in my practice, um, I really work on, imagine if you could take all of that worry and think about that energy, that would be freed up trying to let go of the spiral, the worst case scenario, that kind of thing.
So at their best they're loyal, likable, caring, warm, compassionate, witty, helpful. They're going to be responsible. They're also great employees. But the flip side is that they can also be hypervigilant controlling and they can become judgemental and very, um, I have someone I'm working with an unhealthy way, very defensive and even paranoid.
So there can be this sense of people are out to get me [00:44:00] at this very like an at a very unhealthy level. So why, where does the paranoia come from? Do you think hyper vigilance and for vigilance, this idea of like, well, what if, what if this, and this is at a very unhealthy, the fear, the fear it's true. Fear triad.
And so in stress when I mentioned this, and it's interesting that nine is at the top of the Enneagram, the six and the three come into a perfect triangle. So those types go to each. And health and stress. So the nine, excuse me, the six goes to nine and growth where they're less sort of in themselves. And they can look at the big picture, the peacemaker and take on those qualities.
And the six goes to the three and stress where they can become workaholics. They can look very scattered, they can, um, be concerned about their image, things like, and I'm sure [00:45:00] if you're a loyalist and you're working really hard, you know, and you're really dedicated, like, let's say to your placement appointment, but then you're also hypervigilant maybe, you know, trying to like decipher.
Are they upset with me right now? Or are you okay with me right now? Like, where do I stand in all of this, even though I'm trying really hard. Um, and then, you know, when they're feeling or moving towards health, they can kind of like maybe release that and just say, oh, they're contributing to the biggest picture and be at peace with that.
But under stress, maybe they become more and more vigilant and, you know, upset about like, needing to know if they're like, yes, Being seen perhaps yes. Sixes will replay conversations in their head. Yes. Yes. Oh, the shower replay combos, you know, do you ever daydream in the shower? And you're like 10 minutes has passed and I've thought of like 20 ways.
I could answer a [00:46:00] question ever going to ask me or challenge me. I know we all kind of do that. Right. We all have like some of these qualities, right. Yay. Right there. So, you know, whenever someone is replaying, I love the way you framed, how much energy are you putting towards that? Right. Cause we think about the energy output of preparing for the worst.
And you think even about the tension it creates in your body or the weight changes your stress hormones, right? Even the amount of minutes that passed to prepare. And, um, it's, it's quite, I mean, it's exhausting. Yes. And I see that a lot sixes are really burned out because of that anxiety. And then the last thing we'll say about the six is they struggle a lot with indecision because of that fear of am I going to make the right decision?
And there's a lot of back and forth. And so that's working a lot on, um, and then yeah, just working on it's okay. To make mistakes. It's okay. To make mistakes. It's okay. To make mistakes. [00:47:00] Okay. To make mistakes here. That sixes sixes it's okay. It's going to be okay. Um, so that's the six. So we've talked already a little bit about the seven.
I would love, I love talking about sevens cause I'm a seven. It's just so funny. Like I'm the enthusiast. So the seven. It is the enthusiast or the adventurer. And so there's anxiety for the seven, but the way they manifest it is by it's literally, they are the O G of FOMO, fear of missing. Literally, there's probably something more exciting going on right now that I am missing out on than what I'm doing right now.
Okay. So their anxiety too is anticipatory kind of like the six, but it's more of this. Like I need to get this done, so then I can do to that. But then there's never, like, it's almost like the payoff for an unhealthy seven is the buildup. And then when they're doing that [00:48:00] thing, instead of being. They're thinking about the next thing.
Hmm. I'm married to a seven yo. And, uh, he, I'm not even going to say anything, but he will know what I'm talking about. Yeah. Yes. Like the buildup and then like always talking about being mindful with what is happening right now. Like I've been looking forward to it so much. This person you, I think, well, I said who it is.
I mean, truly for me does things out of love, but then it's also like trying to prepare for like the next part of it and, you know, trying to like serve others and be excited. And yet he has a hard time coming back to the present moment with it. Like, and, and it, he loves the Enneagram. He gets like the emails every day.
So he will bring this isn't anything I'm sharing about him, that he doesn't talk with other people about, you know, I'm confident, you know, I'm not disclosing too much, but that [00:49:00] mindfulness is really key to finding that balance within the enthusiasm, excitement of life, like staying present. And it's really hard.
So sevens are going to be in, so the sevens want to avoid feeling pain and so they will turn it off. And then focus on other more exciting, fun things. They will burn themselves out doing different things. And so this is where I'd like to compare and contrast a little bit of the two and the seven. So a two and a seven might like helping and going doing things.
But the motivations different sevens are helping maybe because they're like, yeah, that sounds like fun. Sure. I'll help you move. But then when they're moving, they're like, I can't wait till this is done so I can go do this. And then it's like, I'm such a helpful person,
[00:50:00] really. So, so there's that, that I wanted to just sort of tee that up to see like, yes, it can present very similar, but the underlying motivation is different sevens are also as, you know, cause you're married to one very quick thing. Oh, my gosh, I can not keep up with his processing power. And sometimes it's like a one second leg and I'm just not fast enough.
And in his opinion, sometimes I'm like, I'm just thinking about it, yo, but it's, it's not even been like five seconds. That's too long, so fast, so fast with everything. So they're really good at brainstorming. They're great with ideas, but don't ask them to follow through with it. So sevens are great at starting projects and not finishing them.
Well, this one does, he finishes. That means he's healthy. Ah, awesome. So [00:51:00] they go to the one in stress and then they go to five. So this idea is so for me, just to share my, like my path with, with being a therapist is like, I'm really focusing on instead of getting caught into like, oh, I want to try brainstorming.
Oh, somatic psychotherapy. Yeah, I am going to work very hard on EMDR. That is going to be my mode. Like, and it's so hard for me because I still think I have like, like 10 hobbies is not enough hobbies for me. And I have to tell myself over and over, like, Julie, you have to get sevens are like the Jack of all trades masters of none.
And so they can get held back in their careers because they're just kind of all over the, they can be all over the place. And, and in fact also can frustrate other people because we can be pretty good if we put our mind to something it's like, oh, you want to go try this thing? Sure. And then they're good at it.
And then they give it up and I'm like, why'd you give it up? Well, I [00:52:00] did it and it was fine. And now I don't want to do it anymore because now I want to go to something like, um, so what about the fives where they move in health? Right? That's what you said. So then what'll happen is it's like, no, I'm going to get really, really good.
So say at EMDR or tennis or, and then enjoy the fruits of that and the fruits of completing something and like appreciating the deep dive into it with sevens. I work with, it's always about quality of the experience over the quantity of the experience. I like that. I'm going to tuck that one in my pocket.
That one in your pocket. Yep. So we can also like a four kind of get lost in planning, get lost in fantasies. Right. Um, and so, so what's good about being a seven, a lot of varied interests. Your sevens are going to be like, Hey, do you want to go do blah-blah-blah this weekend? Yeah, that sounds good. Like sevens are going to be the [00:53:00] fun, loving, like up for anything kind of adventure, um, and are generally optimistic, enthusiastic people, um, where they can get themselves in trouble sometimes due to the pain piece is that I, and I've, I'm getting better at this as like crack and being entertainers.
So cracking a joke to like ease the tension
in my big, you know, as I've grown as a therapist, when I first started out as a new therapist, I didn't want to take my clients deep into their feelings, into their pain. Yeah. Right. And so, I mean, the clients that ham part of, I always call it like the ham, like being a ham. Yes. You know, you know, answering a question with like a joke or, or sound effect is sometimes not answering a question.
Right. It's just like that performance part is that performance, the distraction. [00:54:00] So being able to sit with painful feelings is the work and to deal with boredom is the work of the seven, the pause in the therapy room, um, having a and family of origins. What did that look like in childhood? Do you think, you know, You know, I think of, in some ways Virginia's to tears, um, communication stances is like the irreverent, right.
But I know for myself, I mean, this goes to this idea of how we're, we're almost born our type. Apparently as soon as they started talking, I say to my mom, where are we going to go? What are we going to do today? And my mom was like, we're staying home. And I remember like being like, um, and so I think, you know, it, I think there's daydreaming.
There's action. There's trying things out. Um, but there's this, maybe this anxious quality of like I'm bored. Um, and, and I think a lot of sevens also the childhood issue that can come up for sevens is that they, um, they had [00:55:00] to sort of come up with their own ways to, um, transition from things. So there's this, I look this up here.
I'm not going to sit around feeling sorry for myself. Waiting for someone to take care of me, I'll take care of myself. And so there was this disconnection from a nurturing figure. And so I have, I still to this day have transitional objects. So this idea that sevens in some ways had to take care of their own emotional needs growing up.
Yeah. And then I feel like that pain of like losing that attachment figure early on. Wow. Yeah. And so when managing anxiety that way so interesting. Yeah. It is again, like, that's why there's whole podcast about the Enneagram. Right. And you know, I haven't said it yet, but you do trainings in this, right.
People are interested, like, bring this to your workplace, bring this to your clinic, bring this, you know, you know, book a session just to like, learn more about any consultation and [00:56:00] like, oh, that's so cool. So cool. So the eight, so now we're going to move into the final triad, the eight. Nine and one, the underlying emotion is anger, and now this will manifest really interesting.
So the eight is the challenger and they it's, I am the master of my fate. So now eights are the, probably the type that have no problem showing anger and no trouble with conflict. Um, and so you can imagine being a nine or a seven, a two dealing with eights because they are like direct, we're going to tackle this.
Um, one of the best qualities of an eight is like, they're very self-confident. They can be very protective and they can be very protective of the underdog.
They're loyal. They're energetic. This is interesting because you, with your work too, with the body, the, the aids and their body constitutions can handle a [00:57:00] lot physically. Hmm. So a lot of CrossFitters CrossFitters, a lot of right. Like they can have, and like that physical constitution to say, put up with a lot of quote abuse, but like a lot of like, you know, again, it's a limit with like that heavy strength that conditioning that like Durance.
Yeah. Wow. It's interesting. Their fear is of being harmed or controlled by others. And so they want to protect themselves. Um, they want to be in control of their life and destiny. And so they want to resist feeling weak, Jess and vulnerable. And so they in health, when they are in touch with their vulnerability, when they.
Start to feel their feelings and are okay with it. They become an evolve into the two. And so this is now where they are like protecting the underdog. They are leaders, but they allow people to, um, like [00:58:00] they can give up some of that control of the environment. So they, um, are able to use their strengths to improve other's lives.
They can become heroic and very inspiring. I'm sure. Cause as an eight you can withstand a lot, like your level of tolerance. It sounds like your ability to tolerate distresses is very high. So if you're a leader yes, you're, you're carrying on your shoulders many or many dreams or many goals or outcomes and things like that.
So, and you have to be able to tolerate it. Have to a couple of famous aids just to shit like Winston Churchill. Okay. Wow. Yeah, Oskar Schindler, um, Serena Williams, the pop star. Right. And if you think of all of them, right. Physically strong leaders, um, authoritative, you know, um, so at their worst, they can become controlling, [00:59:00] sensitive.
And a lot of feedback I get from my eight clients is this idea of, um, people have always said I was too much. Um, yeah, but I'm insensitive, um, that, you know, domineering and especially working with, um, with women, um, around, you know, always being told as a child, you're too much, you need to be quiet. You need, you know, and feeling like a lot of shame around that.
Um, healthy eights are just so much fun though, to be around because of their self-confidence the way that they are honest and courageous, but. They can scare people away with their bluntness. Um, they can become very restless and impatient with, with people's incompetence, um, and they can often put too much pressure on themselves.
Okay. That makes sense. That makes a lot of sense. Do you think aids, you see them in therapy a lot in your opinion? They do. So I see, um, I will see eights [01:00:00] in my, um, practice. I have, I can think of one eight I've been working with for a while. And a lot of the worksheet does, is this like how, how do I ask for help?
How do I, um, Yeah. Like we just work on like, it's okay to feel vulnerability. It's okay to feel, you know, this it's also uncoupling with this and I don't know what, you know, this idea of like, well, if I'm not working 14 hours, then I'm not really working hard. Like eight hours doesn't feel like that's like nothing.
It's like, okay, we gotta work on that. And then again, but they have the physical fortitude. Yep. To do the, able to do that. So why not do that? And then, you know, also I can imagine when you're leading, how asking for help sometimes is, you know, it can be challenging because what does that say about you? If you're asking for [01:01:00] help and I know it's, does it question your ability to tolerate and to do all these big things and, and, uh, but yeah, it can, you know, be a lot, I'm sure it's a lot.
And if I ask for help, am I going to be perceived as weak by others? Yeah. Yeah. Can't do that. How does the anger part show up for an eight real quick before we move on? Um, that here, it says here, remember that sparring is stimulating to aids, but to not most other types. So they will like, they really love debating and they can get kind of worked up in debating.
But then when they get done, they let it go. But like, but for others, it's like, you know, a six is replaying that conversation and then going, I can't believe they were so mean to me and this and that. And so the eight can get worked up pretty quickly, but they let it go. Okay. Other types of that makes sense, huh?
They go to the five in stress, which means they [01:02:00] can withdraw and take less action. They become less in touch with their feelings. Believe it or not, which seems surprising. Um, they can feel become defeated and depressed and fear. Others will turn on them. So if you want to think of an unhealthier eight, I love using Tony soprano.
Yay. Yeah. Yup. And so just saying this, right, like, like fear, others will turn on them, become defeated and depressed. You know, this is the whole, like, that's like Tony soprano. And so when you move to that positive side of two, they become more concerned about the welfare of others become more loving and lovable express their soft, gentle, and tender sides.
And like when an aid is in health like that, that they can capture the strength and be that leader. But also that wonderful too. They just want, they're very attractive. I think aids can be very attractive. They have that late. Presence [01:03:00] about them. Yeah. Wow. That is very cool. What was the name of the aid again?
The challenger. The challenger. Yeah. The Maverick can also have brick. Ooh, that's pretty cool. Yes. So now the nine, the peacemaker, I see, I just have a soft spot in my heart for those nine extra compassion for the nasty for the nines. So where aids, this is, this is similar to the three in this. So we're in this anger triad, the instinctual triad here and nines are all about being the peacemaker.
And so nines are they? It says, I go with the flow. So, but for them, the expression of anger is very scary. They actually want to avoid conflict. So here you have, you know, you have the aide that wants to March in right into conflict and nines are like, no, thank you. So some, some really great nines. I love this so much is Mr.
[01:04:00] Rogers. Oh, I love Mr. Rogers Rogers. So nines go to three and health. That's the achiever. So, so more laid back, um, chill, nines become a little more active, productive pursuing. Um, I'm married to a nine. So now I can say that like nines need more time to process. They need more time to think about things. And I often feel in our society like that is, uh, we put some sort of like, like, um, what is it.
Morally you, it's almost like quick thinking is more embraced. And that taking time to think to process is sort of looked down upon. And so in my work with nines, particularly with couples is like, you need to give your partner space and there is nothing wrong with that. We are putting like a moral value on something [01:05:00] like that, and we need to allow them to have space on the flip side.
They need to make a decision within a certain amount of time. Yeah. Yeah. Do you think that they can sit in indecision probably forever. They crafts perhaps. And I'm sure with you as a seven, like you said, quick processing speed and then a nine who needs lots of space to process. Yes. And maybe negotiating when you'll come back together to make sure that happens.
Yes. One of the things I learned early in my marriage is that if, if it's like, if I want to do something over the weekend, I need to say to him like three days before FYI. Yeah. We're going to go do this thing on Saturday. And then he's like, that sounds great. But if I said Saturday morning, I want to go do this.
You'd be like, wait a minute. Well, I, I thought we were gonna, yeah. And so nines. Basic fears of loss and separation. And [01:06:00] so their desire is to have this inner stability of peace of mind. And so they want to create harmony with their environment. They want to avoid conflicts, intention, and this conflicts intention, they want to preserve things as they are.
So of all of the types on the Enneagram nines, don't like change because they want things to stay the way they are. Mm. Which I'm sure because everything changes. It's one of the five remembrances of like, you know, Buddhism that you can always count on, that everything will change. Kind of some suffering for the night you can outfit, it can.
And for the nine they can also become spiritual seekers. So this is interesting with the nines is that they can either be the most embodied of the types or actually, and this is interesting, different from the five they're not in their heads, just they're literally like [01:07:00] up in the cloud. So the nines I meet that are out of their bodies a little bit, I can, it's sort of this almost a little bit dissociative quality to it in unhealth is that they are very disconnected completely from their body.
And so they're ones where it's really push exercise. And I think exercise and movement is good for every type, but the nine needs daily movement to stay in their bodies. So they will become stressed and then struggle with indecision. They actually go to the sex and stress. So if they get two of them, Then they have trouble making decisions, but at their best, they become, they're able to bring people together and heal conflicts.
They make really good therapists because if two other people are in conflict, then that's when they become the peacemaker mediators. Right. These are people who like go do peace talks, they're ambassadors, but it's when the [01:08:00] conflict is turned towards them, that they struggle with. I had a friendship with a nine and there was a little bit of conflict.
I mean, this was a long time ago and I tried to, we tried, I thought we repaired it during this really great combo and she totally ghosted me afterwards. Never heard from her. And I thought we like totally figured it out. I was so proud of us. And then, Nope, I think, you know, and I don't blame her. Like we were younger trying to figure out a whole bunch of stuff, but yeah.
I was like, oh, I think that's the nine that came out. Maybe a little bit choice for sure. For sure. Probably was just possibly it wasn't a body work quite yet to understand, like there must be. I wonder how much there was like override or overwhelm in the system during that conflict. And then just kind of cross the line of like, maybe I don't want to navigate that anymore if that's where this kind of brings up.
So that's okay. Also one of the loveliest [01:09:00] humans I've ever met to tell you the truth and just a great person, right? So nine's, nine's make great friends because they go with the flow. The work I do in therapy with nines is when someone says, what do you want for dinner? You, instead of saying whatever you want is fine.
Even if you have a preference, then state your preference. What I've seen. Yes. What I've seen sometimes in couples counseling is how another partner gets really frustrated because they're like, I actually want you to make the decision tonight to the nine. And so then the nine has to sit and go, well, I don't, I don't really know what I want.
What do I want? And then some of that indecision hits. And so, so often when I work with nines or in couples work, is this idea of like, um, instead of answering, I don't know, or whatever you want is fine with me. I'll let you know when I decide. Right. Um, learning to rock the boat a little bit, but in their nervous system, doing it with [01:10:00] low-hanging fruit.
Okay. If your partner says, do you want pizza or spaghetti tonight? And you're like, whatever you want it. No. Okay. Pizza spaghetti. Yeah. Whichever one is going to be fine. Practice it. Notice how that feels. And then. It's going to be okay. I'm sure. What do you think with nine sometimes? Like, um, they aren't communicating perhaps their feelings for quite a while.
And so you maybe don't know there's something wrong in the relationship. Totally. It's just kind of like, yeah, they don't want to say that even out of like, love sometimes like, you know, feeling a little upset about this or that. So I'll just kind of, you know, make peace with it myself and kind of just, you know, I don't fault you, but at a certain point everyone's human.
So then maybe what happens is I could imagine maybe it comes out like passively where they kind of like, don't talk [01:11:00] to you as much anymore, or, you know, It's just, it's really interesting to me how, you know, these, these types kind of like how we're also like in relationship with ourself and then how we're in relationship with others and how it kind of goes back and forth in that way.
At least that's what I've imagined with the night. I'm not quite sure. Yeah. You're hitting the nail on the head. So how they express their anger instead of coming right on and telling someone they're angry, they become passive aggressive. Uh, okay. Yeah. Underwrite, like they become passive aggressive. And what I'd say about the childhood pattern, and I think this is important.
With nines is that they grew up feeling that having needs asserting themselves, getting angry or creating difficulties for their parents were not allowed. So this idea of, if I just stay out of the way, the family will stay together. And so these are often children, that'll just either describe their childhood as being happy or that they were this low maintenance child.
But in fact, then there's that [01:12:00] quality of dissociation, right? Where it's like, I'm just, and my husband talked a lot about like, I would just go outside and play alone and like hang out in a tree. And he's the low maintenance child in his family, for sure. And to this day, you know? And so I'll say to him often, I'll say, if you really have a preference, you need to tell me, and if you don't and you're truly okay with whatever.
That's okay, but I've had a few with the seven or someone else who's like making all these choices. Doesn't know that you don't necessarily want to be doing that, but you're just trying to be kind and, and allow other people to have their lived experience. You don't want to convenience them with your lived experience, but after a while that's not meeting your needs either.
No. Yeah, it is. And I sometimes worry that I say to him, some I don't as much anymore, but I'm like, listen, I'm just worried. At some point, you're just going to blow up at me and go, you know, this, this definitely give me, you never told [01:13:00] me. And I never, you know, so now I try to work on, I can giving you space, but then at some point.
Again, with nines, I'll say, did you tell the person that will know you ha like part of this is giving the space as the trust that you'll come back and communicate what you need and not just enjoy your space and use it in a way to never speak about yourself or your needs again. Yeah. Again, and then to then blow up or be passive aggressive or things like that.
Nines don't like pressure or expectations. So how you ask them is important. Interesting. Okay. And they like to tell stories and they need time to share their stories. Okay. Yeah. Hmm. Yeah. Thinking a lot about this. This would be super cool to, uh, have, yeah. I'm just thinking about like work environments and different things like that.
Where if everyone took the Enneagram. Yeah, how interesting it is [01:14:00] to then work together, knowing that it's so, and if you decide we want to do a follow-up right. I mean, this is where we could talk about, we have to devote the one it's sort of interesting that actually we're talking about you last me. Um, but how do these types of work together?
Yeah, yeah, yeah. That would be a great one. And so I hope I'm thankful everyone is still listening because we were like, oh, we can do this. I can do an hour easily. No, we're not. So maybe this'll get split into two, but I don't think so because y'all can hit pause. You can hit fast forward or you can just, you know, skip to your number.
That's fine too. But thinking about how these types then work all together and we didn't even talk about wings, which if you do explore the Enneagram on your own, you'll be like, what? There's wings, there's wings. We know it. We're just not talking about it. That's right. So, but, uh, yeah, it's fascinating to think about.
These, you know, um, types, you know, [01:15:00] co-exist yes. So, but we'll end with the one, the last one in the anger triad have triad that instinctual triad. So the one is the reformer or the perfectionist. So the mantra they live by as I have a mission in life. So some famous ones, and I love this so much, right.
Mahatma, Gandhi, Pope, John Paul, the second Nelson Mandela, and then Jane Fonda. So I love Jane Fonda. Right? Cause she's an actress, but a huge activist, like so famous. Yeah. Perfect activism. Right. And so just like sharing that idea of she's a creative, but she's also in that, in the realm of an activist of the reformer.
So the one. Are the, at their best ethical, reliable, productive, wise, honest, fair, and disciplined. Like these are the [01:16:00] ones, right? Like they, this is about justice in the world and what is doing what is right. And so I see this with one so much, but where they get caught up sometimes is in perfectionism and, and I'm working with a client who's like, well, criticism is my love language.
So it's like, if I care enough about you and I love you, I want you to be the best you can be. Okay. I'm laughing for my poor family and my friends. So I need to work on that. I really need to work on that. You know, I always just kind of think I know the best path for everyone. Else's myself, which in therapy.
So interesting. Cause I reign that in. Like I know that about myself, so I. That in as a clinically, as a therapist, but you know, talking about mission, I've never really heard it phrase that way. That there's, I, when I was younger, I started meeting with [01:17:00] spiritual directors in my early twenties. I started meeting with people and I'm like, I am Neo from the matrix.
That's how I would try to explain it. I'm waiting for Morpheus to show up and tell me, like, there is something else out there and you have always been a part of it. I have always felt like this sense of a mission. And it, you know, is a blessing and a curse. Cause not everyone's on that mission with me and not everyone's on the pace of that mission with right.
Either or, you know, maybe there's people who enjoy me for other aspects and they're like slow down on the mission and come spend your life with me and play with me and visit with me and hang out with me. So, uh, yeah, the mission, this is a driving force. It is. And the one, so we didn't say this, but ones. I like to think of ones, sevens, eights, and twos.
For the most part, we are like the doers. I mean, ones are right up there, right? You, you, you [01:18:00] have a mission, you have a purpose, we need to do it. So for the one, their fear is of being bad, defective, evil, or corrupt. And so their desire is to be good virtuous in balance and have integrity. So you are good if you are doing what is right.
And so. They are always there's this striving to be right to improve everything. Um, they also want to justify themselves, so to be beyond criticism. So they cannot be condemned by anyone where they get stuck. Is this like, is this good enough? Is this relationship good enough? Is this job good enough? Um, why would I compliment people on just doing their job?
It's what they're supposed to do. Well, people thrive on being complimented. For example, for example, you know, if you're married, you know, if you're in [01:19:00] relationship, Um, uh, you know, with the different type who may be really thrives on compliments and AR and you know, like if you were with a nine who's, like criticism is going to feel awful, the nine is going to Stonewall shut down and then that's going to be really frustrating.
Yeah. Yeah. Definitely. And I think, you know, what did you just say? He said something about the ones where identified to where it's, you know, the mission. It's always about like creating positive change. It's not out of this, um, people around me aren't good enough. Or it's, it's just, you know, we're put on the planet here, right.
And if you're not helping or contributing and making a better place, I mean, I don't feel this way, but in times of stress and when I was younger, I did, I was like, then what are you doing here? Like everyone should at least be doing some things. Right. You know, we once played this game where it was like, who in this group would win the Nobel prize when we were younger.
And it was [01:20:00] like, oh, that would be just because it's, you know, it's also kind of a Debbie downer when I was younger. I couldn't let it go. And I say, Debbie downer, because I be socializing with peers and I would have to bring up like the injustices of the world. We're having too much fun. Or, you know, if someone makes a comment, you all have to clarify how appropriate that is.
And I mean, in a lot of ways, it makes me a wonderful ally. So I'm not saying that wrong, but. I also can just be pretty rigid with my expectations exactly. Of other people. And if they're like living up to their potential and also offers and also, you know, and it's something I know about and I, I work on it, but y'all, if anyone needs to bring it up to me on the side, I'm okay.
You can say your one is coming out and I need you to reel it back in. And you're talking about, um, I think Jesse just described being a one so beautifully, right? [01:21:00] Which is this idea that the ones want themselves, they hold themselves and others to a certain set of principles. That's important because we have a mission.
What can be hard about that is like, is that you, do you ever feel disappointed with yourself or disappointed with others? You know, Yeah. And are you guys like, I might, like, I don't want someone to tell me any criticism for the most part, because I've already thought I, like, I know it. So, you know, and it's, it's different that probably kicks in most of my marriage.
Like I can, I think that I've worked really hard to like take feedback from. Um, friends or like coworkers and colleagues, like they're a little farther out, but the people that get really close to my heart, I'm already so worried that they don't think I'm a good person, that I am analyzing everything else or about myself.
[01:22:00] I've already thought it 10 times. You don't need to tell me, cause I already know, you know? And so it can kind of create like even more like yeah. Awfulness or rigidity when I'm in like growing towards my seven. Yeah. There's a lot of capacity to like, hear that with space and then reflect on it and integrate what I think is helpful and, you know, honor their feelings, but also go if I'm like, oh, that's okay.
I'm just glad you're sharing with me. And so in a healthy place, it's very different. Yes. Um, for the one. They, um, let me go here to this. So going back to that sense of longing. So when, when ones are under stress, they long for what they don't have and they feel hopeless about ever getting it. Um, yes, at least for me, I'm like, I identify with that where sometimes it's, I've already had all this conversation in my [01:23:00] head about something and if it's not going the way I think it will, then there is, or if I've come up against, you know, like for me, I've talked in the podcast before about this hip injury, this labor, labor labral tear that I have.
And it w it's created lots of hopelessness because I would think of like, I w I'll get through it this time. I'll be able to move pain-free and I'll be able to like, like be balanced and feel like myself. And then there's an obstacle. And then there's a lot of like internal hopelessness. So they're not talking about or telling one anyone about.
It kind of like takes me off the path and like off the mission and I can get like, kind of shut down in that place. Yeah. That makes sense that they, the other thing with the one is that they'll turn their anger inward. And so I've worked with ones when I'm like, tell me about your relationship with anger.
And they look at me. I don't, I don't understand what you mean. And I actually had one client once tell me, [01:24:00] she actually felt like anger was not a useful emotion. So this idea of like, I like anger just seems, so it comes out again, either in resentment. Um, if you're nine, if you're weighing as a nine passive, a little more passive, aggressive, passive aggressiveness, excuse me.
Um, or this just sense of I'm going to be critical. I'm going to be judgmental and I'm going to hold a grudge. And so forgiveness or getting over something can be very, very hard where other people have moved on. One's can hang onto some of that because they don't have a good outlet for their anger. Yeah, it's interesting.
I talk about like before therapy, Jess and after therapy and not like being a therapist like therapy. And, um, I had lots of rage when I was younger. I would just hold it in, hold it in. And it would explode. And I say, rage like rage, you know? And I've, I've lost relationships [01:25:00] because of it. And, um, which rightfully so glad those people decided this.
They shouldn't be in a dynamic with me, um, or I will hold it in and then I will let it all come out, not even as rage, but like all the. Thoughts I've had about this relationship. Not going away, won it for the last year. And I'll tell someone, and I don't know, five minutes if I feel like it. And then they're like, Hmm, don't really want to be in a really friendship or relationship with you anymore.
Rightfully so, because I was so scared to like tell them along the way, because like, you know, is this okay to be upset with you right now? Or will you just like disappear in my life? So I'll just hold on. Yeah. Hold it all in. Yeah. Versus saying it. And I think today as human beings, those of us who are like, I'm afraid to say it often, if, especially if we have a quality of anxiety, it gives it in our head.
It has so much [01:26:00] more power. And when we say it and you look around and you're like, oh, the world didn't explode when I just said that. Right. Or someone hears it. And you're like, oh, thanks for telling me. Yeah, right. Like sevens sevens can sometimes miss, um, that they're like they're cracking jokes and hurting people's feelings.
Okay. Sevens never go into it going, I'm going to deliberately hurt your feelings. Never. And they're mortified. Right. But if let's say you're like, Julia really made me mad, I'm not going to tell her. And then Julia did that over and over and she must know what a jerk she is. Yeah. And then you'd come to me and be like, and I'd be like, oh yeah.
Or let's say I do that to a, to poor twos who just want to be in service of others. Just want to get you to love them and care about them. And you've been holding in all these like big feelings and then they're like, Holy guacamole. Um, I don't know what to do with this. And now [01:27:00] it's even going at the parts who don't want to be low or who are feared, who hear rejection or fear that, you know, you don't see how much I care about you.
So hold on the Enneagram. So once, you know, it's helpful to relax, have fun play. Um, it's good to know that people might not change as quickly as you like or change at all. So being patient, um, getting in touch with your feelings and, and just try to forgive yourself and like, and like said, I sometimes joke with people who are like a, you know, it's a plus I'm like, I really want you to just try to have it be like a B plus, because I bet your B plus is still like an a plus plus, uh, yes, Tammy Conrad said that to me once.
And I've said it to so many other people as a therapist, like she wants with. I bet. You're good enough. What your effort that's good enough is still like, yeah, really good. So let's try and [01:28:00] shoot for, you know, for you maybe, you know, a good enough and it's never, it's totally sunk in and it's never really left this idea that, oh my gosh.
I can just stop at good enough. Just stop it. Good enough. BS, BS, get degrees. I was telling my students, I was like, Hey kids, guess what? BS get degrees. You just need to pass your licensing exam. No one cares. Yeah. Yeah. Just like your driver's license. Like does anyone remember their score? How close they were to failing?
Y'all were just driving around now. That's all we're doing. No one cares. No. One's going to ask for your tests before they get in the car with you. That's right. Yeah. So the Enneagram, I use it, what I say to clients. So I think about body-based work, right? So there's. Yeah, we work in our bodies. We learn where we're feeling things.
We're sensing things, we're reprocessing trauma, but where I think the Enneagram comes in nice in my clinical practice is when clients come in and say, Julia, why do I act this way in these [01:29:00] situations? Why? And so that's what I'm like, take this and then let's talk about it and you know, why does this person trigger me so much?
Well, let's what kind of person are they? And like, this is where I like to bring Enneagram into, into my practice is kind of what we did today is just having a dialogue around, you know, and it can also help me set up and like, think about who's sitting across from me in the room and what type do I think they are, even if they're not necessarily wanting to do any Agram work, but it helps me conceptualize a case.
It helps me know potentially, you know, I think there's different attachment styles that come with the different types. And it's so it can help me to know like, oh, why is this person, you know? And when I say rubbing me the wrong way, my clients don't necessarily do that, but more in my personal relationships.
And I go, yeah, they might be a certain, yeah, yeah. Do you have any, well, we'll put them, we'll put it in the show notes about any books or [01:30:00] resources or the websites, all that kind of good stuff. The wisdom of the Enneagram we'll have your name and contact information. I'm just so excited. Thank you for first of all, being the.
Episodes so far on our contracts, but like this topic is so cool. It just, it needed the space to enjoy. And then also just for bringing your amazing self here, I just am so grateful for it then. Yeah. Thank you for having me. I just love doing this and yes, I like I'm available for trainings I'm available for, um, consultation. So, and for therapy.
So you can find me at begroundedtherapy.com. You can also shoot me an email at firstname.lastname@example.org. Okay. gmail.com. Awesome. And we'll have all that listed. Thank you. Thank you so much, so much fun.
Thank you again for joining us on Insight Mind Body Talk, a body-centered [01:31:00] mental health podcast. We hope today's episode was empowering and supported you in strengthening your mind-body connection We're your hosts Jeanne and Jess. Please join us again as we continue to explore integrative approaches to wellbeing. Until then, take care.